Jack Antonoff owes a lot to the boredom of his hometown

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

Hey, it's Rachel. Just a heads-up - this episode contains a teensy bit of cursing.

How has grief shaped your life?

JACK ANTONOFF: Entirely.

MARTIN: Entirely.

ANTONOFF: I almost see it as, like, an emotional lens, you know, like a contact lens or something that, like, goes over your eye. It's not, like, a thing that happens that you sometimes feel. It's, like - it's how you see things.

MARTIN: I'm Rachel Martin, and this is WILD CARD, the game where cards control the conversation.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards...

Pick a card one through three.

...Questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that have shaped them.

ANTONOFF: You know, I'm not someone who - I'm not really doing a bit, you know? I really feel very sincere about the things I'm doing and saying, and I think a big part of that is just being confronted with time and fragility.

MARTIN: There is this unfortunate trait among some people who work in radio - we tend to edit conversations in real-time. I know this because I am guilty of it. It is a super annoying habit that I try to keep to myself. But because I interview people for a living, when I'm having just, like, a normal conversation with my spouse or my friends or anyone and they start telling me a particularly long story, I think to myself, oh, you should really leave that out and, yep, that can go. So could that. Edit, edit, edit. Sometimes you do a thing for a living, and it gets stuck in you, and you can't help yourself but to keep doing it.

Case in point - famed music producer Jack Antonoff. He's won 10 Grammys, most prominently for his work producing Taylor Swift. But he's also worked with Lana Del Rey, Lorde and St. Vincent. Jack Antonoff's ear is attuned to details in this superhuman way. He wants to shape things, fix them, channel them. And like my constantly editing brain, his producing cannot be contained by his work. In fact, when I was talking to him, he had this moment where he sort of started producing our conversation.

This was recorded early on in our piloting of the show, and we still hadn't worked out all the kinks - the rules in particular. We had the skip, and then we just had, you can make me answer first - no clever name for that one. As you'll hear, Jack heard that, and immediately, he went, so I get one skip and a flip. And I was like, oh, of course, a flip. You just made that so much better. I'm using that. And we have ever since. Thank you, Jack. That quickness, that ingenuity - it's what makes him a great producer, and it is also what made me excited to play the game with him.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Jack Antonoff, I am so happy that you're here.

ANTONOFF: Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot of things. We're going to talk, but I did bring you here to play this game. So we're going to do that in a few minutes.

ANTONOFF: OK.

MARTIN: You cool with that?

ANTONOFF: I'm cool with any of it.

MARTIN: All right. All right. We'll see how it goes. So your band, Bleachers, has a new album out, and this is you as the artist - right? - as the performer. How did you know it was time to do that?

ANTONOFF: Simply 'cause I'm called to write. But they take me a long time to make, and songs come rarely. And when they do, it's glorious, but they're not always attached to albums, so it's, like, you find yourself writing, and then it's kind of like all of a sudden you're like, oh, there it is. But it always comes from, like, a distant place in you. Like, I always say that you don't write a lot of things you know 'cause they're a little boring. You write a lot of things that you're unsure of.

MARTIN: So what were you unsure of in the last couple of years that you needed to work out this way?

ANTONOFF: Well, now I can answer it clearly. If you asked me during it, I would have talked to you for four hours about all the different aspects of my life. Now that I'm all done, I understand what the hell I was saying, which is I was unsure of how to move on with my life. So I lost my sister when I was 18, and I've written so much about grief and the past and the future, what has happened, what could happen, this endless back-and-forth. And what I realize now is that I was working really hard and having a lot of fear about how to live in any sort of present way, and does that mean I'm giving up on her memory or something?

So through the lens of the deepening relationship with my band, my partner, all these things, my relationship with my audience, of these sort of, like, deepening relationships, I was finding myself more and more and more present, which is a beautiful thing. Getting married is obviously a part of that. A lot of my collaborators and artwork is a part of that. And then the real dark side is, well, if I have this presence about me in my life and I'm not just someone who sort of, as I say, tribute lives, am I letting go of this memory, this person, this honoring, right? And so that's the heart and soul of the album - easy to say now, that, you know, you take two years, and you're like, yeah, that's what the hell I'm talking about. That's why I'm shouting these things.

MARTIN: Yeah.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: You want to play this game?

ANTONOFF: So badly.

MARTIN: So badly - good. That's exactly the right answer. You've been waiting your whole life to do this, Jack Antonoff. In front of me is a deck of cards.

ANTONOFF: OK.

MARTIN: On each of these cards is a question that I would love for you to answer, OK? I'm going to hold up three at a time, and you're going to choose one at random. There are a few rules. Number one, you get a skip.

ANTONOFF: Cool.

MARTIN: If you use your skip, then I'm just going to replace that question with a new one from the deck, OK?

ANTONOFF: Got it.

MARTIN: And number two, you can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do.

ANTONOFF: Got it. So I get one skip and one flip.

MARTIN: Yeah. Ooh. Oh, my God - a flip. I'm totally taking that.

ANTONOFF: It's all yours.

MARTIN: We're going to break it up into rounds. Round 1 is about memories, experiences that shaped you. Round 2 is insights or lessons that you've learned or are learning. And 3 is about beliefs - OK? - the way that you make sense of the world. And because it's a game, there's a prize when you make it to the end.

ANTONOFF: Oh, no, really?

MARTIN: Yeah, totally.

ANTONOFF: Oh, do I know, or do...

MARTIN: Surprises.

ANTONOFF: ...I have to wait to find out?

MARTIN: No, I'm going to tell you at the end. There has to be an incentive. That's how it works.

ANTONOFF: Is it food?

MARTIN: I'm not telling.

ANTONOFF: I hope it's food.

MARTIN: I'm not telling. OK, you ready?

ANTONOFF: Yeah.

MARTIN: All right. Round 1 - this is memories. Pick a card one through three.

ANTONOFF: Three.

MARTIN: What is something about your hometown you've come to appreciate over time?

ANTONOFF: Oh, everything (laughter).

MARTIN: Softball (laughter) - lover of New Jersey.

ANTONOFF: OK. Real answer, though, is the slowness of my hometown. I grew up in New Milford, N.J. That's where I was until I was, like, 8, and I just stared at the walls. All I wanted to do was break out. All I wanted to do was go everywhere and do everything and tour the world and, you know, make my mark and do all these things. And that slow, slow, slow boredom of where I grew up made my imagination run wild. And I can't recreate it, and I can't change it, and I never would, and I'm just happy I got to have it. My life existed in cars waiting for my mom to...

MARTIN: Yes.

ANTONOFF: ...Do whatever she was doing.

MARTIN: I know. My kids today are like - I'm like, come on an errand with me. No. Errands? I'm like, you have no idea. That's all we used to do. We used to go on errands and sit in the car and wait for our parents.

ANTONOFF: (Laughter).

MARTIN: OK, three new cards. Still in the memories round. Pick a card one through three.

ANTONOFF: Two.

MARTIN: If you got a do-over for one decision in your life, what would it be?

ANTONOFF: A do-over for one decision - what would it be? That's a flip.

MARTIN: (Laughter) Oh, mine's so heavy.

ANTONOFF: Go for it.

MARTIN: So my mom was dying of cancer many years ago now, and she was in hospice. She was at home with my brother and sister and our extended family. And I left before she died.

ANTONOFF: Oh, yeah.

MARTIN: I kept telling myself a story that somebody needed to be with my dad on the other side, and I only had certain days that I could take off from work. And in retrospect, it was because I couldn't handle it. And I - sorry, now I'm so sad. But...

ANTONOFF: No, I understand.

MARTIN: ...Yeah, that's mine, is that I would do that differently.

ANTONOFF: Yeah. I - when my sister was dying, I mean, I was home when she died, but I remember there was, like, when she was getting really sick, I was going to these tour dates, and my family was like, you have to go do them. You have to go do them. And I did them, and it was just sort of, like, in hindsight, it was like, who gives a s***? But I think that we have our capacity and it's kind of baked in, and then we tell ourselves these stories when we're in these really crazy situations. And it's, I don't know, it's just so fascinating years later...

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: ...Why you do what you do.

MARTIN: And I don't - I don't know. People are always like, I don't have regrets in my life because it led me to who I am today and blah, blah, blah. And - no, I regret that.

ANTONOFF: Oh, that - that's bull****. I think people have just - yeah, obsessively like to say they have no regrets. And it's like, what does that even mean? Like, everyone has regrets.

MARTIN: Right. How is that even possible?

ANTONOFF: Everyone has...

MARTIN: We...

ANTONOFF: ...Regrets.

MARTIN: ...Make mistakes.

ANTONOFF: Yeah.

MARTIN: We look back and think, yeah, I could have managed that in a different way.

ANTONOFF: Yeah. Well, I think that's also baked in, like, people's obsession with, like, a version of wellness. Like, no regrets. It's like, shut up, everyone's got regrets. It might be more interesting to just own them.

MARTIN: So is that your answer?

ANTONOFF: Yeah, that would be my answer is that I - but I would even open that up to a bigger concept. There's things in life I missed because I was obsessed with my work that I wish I didn't miss.

MARTIN: Yeah. Weddings?

ANTONOFF: Yeah. Weddings, funerals...

MARTIN: Funerals.

ANTONOFF: ...Lots of stuff, you know?

MARTIN: Yeah, yeah.

ANTONOFF: Part of doing what I do is this baked-in idea that you're going to miss out on all these things, right? And I don't know if it's true. I don't know if it...

MARTIN: You don't know if it had to be that way.

ANTONOFF: I don't know if it had...

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: ...To be true. I think that's a real disservice that we as a culture, like, do to artists, where it's like this idea of, like, well, you're just lucky to be here, so, you know, go do this, miss this. Work yourself to the bone. Don't get paid. You know, that's just sort of...

MARTIN: It's the same...

ANTONOFF: ...What it is.

MARTIN: ...With journalism, by the way.

ANTONOFF: Is it? Yeah.

MARTIN: Oh, my God. I missed so many things. And I just kept telling myself if I didn't miss it, then I was going to miss this opportunity, and then...

ANTONOFF: Yeah, and you start to wonder, you know, this anxiety that's placed on us in certain careers is born from this you're-just-lucky-to-be-here mentality.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Jack talks about his rituals around cleanliness.

ANTONOFF: I haven't touched my eyes, nose, mouth or ears with my hands unwashed in probably 20 years.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: OK, we're in round two now. This is insights, lessons that you've learned or stuff you're still figuring out. Pick a card one through three.

ANTONOFF: Two.

MARTIN: What is proof that somebody really knows you?

ANTONOFF: Proof that somebody really knows me is they understand my rituals around feeling clean.

MARTIN: Oh, so many follow-ups to ask...

ANTONOFF: Yeah...

MARTIN: ...Here.

ANTONOFF: ...And it's and it's not basic. Like, it's not like, he's a germophobe. It's very specific of my definition of what is and isn't clean.

MARTIN: OK, tell me an example of what that looks like for you.

ANTONOFF: My only concern with cleanliness is around my face.

MARTIN: OK.

ANTONOFF: You can f****** put - smear anything on my body. It's my - I haven't touched my eyes, nose, mouth or ears with my hands unwashed in probably 20 years. So it's...

MARTIN: Wait, I just...

ANTONOFF: It's very specific.

MARTIN: But how is that even possible? I realized as you were talking, I was, like, rubbing underneath my eyes. I think...

ANTONOFF: I don't do it.

MARTIN: ...I touch my face...

ANTONOFF: Because...

MARTIN: ...All the time.

ANTONOFF: ...It's very - I'm very scientific. I'm not a germophobe. I just - that's how you get sick. That's how germs spread, usually, is - and obviously, I go play in front of a ton of people, but I have no need to rub my eyes, my nose, my mouth, and my hands if they're not washed.

MARTIN: So you don't pick - if you have, like, a zit or, like, a little scab on your face, do you - you don't feel inclined to pick those things?

ANTONOFF: Well, if I do, it would be, like, after I've washed my hands, after a...

MARTIN: Right, OK.

ANTONOFF: ...Shower or something.

MARTIN: OK. OK.

ANTONOFF: You know, you look around, you're at a bus stop, the - a restaurant, anywhere you are, and people are just touching their nose, touching their eyes, and it's like, this is how it's all happening. And there's no upside, besides, you know, for me, for me personally.

MARTIN: Have you always been like that, like, as a kid?

ANTONOFF: Yeah. But it's - yeah, pretty much.

MARTIN: OK, that was fruitful. Three new cards. Still in insights. Pick a card one through three.

ANTONOFF: Three.

MARTIN: What feels unreachable to you?

ANTONOFF: What feels unreachable? I always want to not have a certain amount of anxiety and it feels a little unreasonable. It feels like it's just kind of baked in (laughter).

MARTIN: Has that been for a long time?

ANTONOFF: Yeah. I always, like, I want to, like, reach this, like, pureness of no anxiety. But yeah, but it's still one of the few things in my life that feels unreachable.

MARTIN: Is it - I mean, how does that manifest in your life? Is it a helpful creative force? Is - does it wield good in your life, or is it mostly a negative thing?

ANTONOFF: I don't think it's - I think productive things have come from it, but I think it's a net negative. I think, you know, like, in the face of it, I've had to figure some things out and create some habits or write some songs that kind of, like, fly in the face of it or whatever. But I do think it's a net negative. I don't think it's who I am. I think it's sort of, like, this weird layer that is a byproduct of things I've been through. I don't like it. It doesn't feel like me. And I think that's why it's anxiety. You know, I think it's because it's like, what is this? This isn't me. I want to beat it and I can't.

MARTIN: Do you go for a run? Do you meditate? Are there things that are surefire ways to get you out of it?

ANTONOFF: There used to be when it was much worse. Now it's not, like - I've had, like, moments in my life where it was more, like, debilitating, and I had to have methods. Now I'm just, like, ah. It's, like, this old annoying friend or something. I know it. I know how it goes. I know where it goes. I know it doesn't last forever. I think that's one of the glories of age is how you can kind of, like, I love when you get to that point with some of the things that bother you about yourself where you become almost, like, bored and angry about it. Like, ah, stop. Great. I have that anxious feeling, you know?

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: The separation of self is helpful. But I'd like to just kind of drift past it, and that doesn't seem fully possible.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be back with the beliefs round with Jack Antonoff.

Are you, by nature, an optimist? Is that how people would describe you?

ANTONOFF: I think all songwriters are.

MARTIN: Huh.

ANTONOFF: It's an optimistic act.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: How are you feeling? You doing OK?

ANTONOFF: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm fine.

MARTIN: Do you need any water?

ANTONOFF: No, no. I'm feeling good.

MARTIN: OK. I don't have any to give you, but I just...

ANTONOFF: OK, thank you for...

MARTIN: ...Was offering.

ANTONOFF: ...The offer.

MARTIN: All right, you're welcome.

ANTONOFF: Thank you for offering for me to go get myself some water.

MARTIN: That's exactly right. OK, so we are now in round three. This is the beliefs round. Pick a card one through three.

ANTONOFF: One.

MARTIN: One. Well, you talked a little bit about this. How has grief shaped your life?

ANTONOFF: Entirely.

MARTIN: Entirely.

ANTONOFF: I feel like you have these things in your life, some of which are, like, before you're born, some of which are things that happened. But they're almost, like, I almost see it as, like, almost like an emotional lens, you know, like a contact lens or something that, like, goes over your eye emotionally and so sort of, like, it's not, like, a thing that happened that you sometimes feel. It's - like, it's how you see things now. So, like, grief is just, like, I assume it'll be the rest of my life, it's just part of how I see things.

MARTIN: How old were you when your sister died?

ANTONOFF: I was 18, but she was sick since I was 5, so it was a big part of my life. And then - so I just - I don't know. Yeah, like, a full - I almost quantify my things in my life a little black and white, like this is something that happened and I'm dealing with, or this is something that completely colors how I see the world.

MARTIN: So how does that manifest in how you see the world? In my life, I can understand that I don't have that kind of grief that's lived with me for that long, like all of your adult life and most of your childhood. But does it - I mean, for me, I see a kind of constant impermanence in things.

ANTONOFF: Yeah.

MARTIN: Is that how it shows up in your life when you say...

ANTONOFF: It's one of - yeah.

MARTIN: ...It shapes something about it?

ANTONOFF: I think that things are really fleeting. The thing about sick people, people who are unsure how long they'll get to live, especially kids in that position, I mean, the lack of cynicism, the obsession with creation, joy, love, family. You know, it's just - when you might not have a lot of time on Earth, you don't define yourself by the things you hate, quite - put very simply. And so that just lives in me, you know, I'm not someone who moves through the world - I'm not really doing a bit, you know? I really...

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: ...Feel very sincere about the things I'm doing and saying, and I think a big part of that is just being confronted with time and fragility, and - yeah, that was always on the table. Especially, like, when she actually died, you know, she was dying and actually died when I was 18. So - and then the years before, obviously, were pretty tough. So it's, like, those are pretty powerful life moments. I remember very clearly seeing everyone in my world kind of, like, planes taking off. And I was not, you know? That's a very specific moment in time when you're supposed to feel, like, free. And...

MARTIN: Like you're getting better.

ANTONOFF: ...Anything's possible.

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: Well, it's said, you know, most people, when you're graduating high school, this is the moment when you're...

MARTIN: Oh, I see.

ANTONOFF: ...Supposed to be like...

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: ...I can do anything in the world.

MARTIN: Right.

ANTONOFF: You know, those are really those - as I've heard, 'cause I didn't really have them, those few years you get where you're just sort of, like, endless stamina, endless possibility.

MARTIN: Yeah.

ANTONOFF: You know, those are the years that everyone talks about. I didn't really get them in the same way, and I think that colored my life a lot.

MARTIN: How do you feel most connected to her?

ANTONOFF: Probably through my family. That's why we, you know, I think when you have a great loss, people either kind of, like, run or glue themselves to each other. We definitely did the glue method.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: OK, last set of cards.

ANTONOFF: One.

MARTIN: One? I haven't even put the cards out. OK, hold on. Hold your horses. OK, one, two, three. OK, yeah, you just went for it. You didn't know, but you just went for it. Do you think there is order to the universe or is it all chaos?

ANTONOFF: Oh, there's definitely order.

MARTIN: Where do you see order?

ANTONOFF: I see it everywhere. Sometimes you've got to look for it, but I see a lot of good things happening to people who deserve it. I see a lot of people finding each other in the most random experiences. I just see - I don't know. I'm always looking for opposites, so this conversation about how horrible the world is, rightfully so, sometimes compels me to look for a lot of beauty in it. So lately, I've just seen a lot of beauty.

MARTIN: Are you, by nature, an optimist? Is that how people would describe you?

ANTONOFF: I think all songwriters are.

MARTIN: Huh.

ANTONOFF: It's such an optimistic act, even if it's the darkest, hellish, saddest song in the world. The act of doing it and the act of sharing it, you can't divorce it from the optimism. Otherwise, you wouldn't do it. Especially when it'd be so easy to not do it.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: You made it to the end. So you remember that there's a prize?

ANTONOFF: Yes. What have I won?

MARTIN: OK, you have won (vocalizing) a trip in our memory time machine.

ANTONOFF: Yeah?

MARTIN: Memory time machine to revisit...

ANTONOFF: Yes?

MARTIN: ...One moment from your past. So this is a moment you would not change anything about, you just want to spend a little more time there. Which moment would you choose?

ANTONOFF: I want to be - the house we grew up in New Milford. I want to be hanging out on the lawn with my family. I could use some more time there.

MARTIN: What does it look like? Do you have trees? Is there good landscaping?

ANTONOFF: There's, like, one tree. There's not good landscaping. It's just, like, rows of houses, completely mundane, classic suburban setting. My whole family's there, and we - my neighbor, Jean-Marie (ph) was tie-dying shirts, and she was a little older. And we were running across the street, like, tie-dying shirts together and just being as a family, and it was just - yeah, before anyone was - anything was too complicated, and no one was - yeah, things were just quite simple.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Thank you for playing the game.

ANTONOFF: Thank you for having me. I really loved it.

MARTIN: Did you?

ANTONOFF: Yeah.

MARTIN: I'm so glad. I did, too. I think it's so fun.

ANTONOFF: I hope you keep the flip. I like that. I like that as being my contribution.

MARTIN: It was pretty good. Jack Antonoff, award-winning musician, songwriter, producer. His band, Bleachers, has a new self-titled album that is out now. Jack, this was super fun. Thank you.

ANTONOFF: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: If you want to hear more with Jack Antonoff, we've got one more question with him in our bonus episode. It's available right now just for our WILD CARD Plus supporters.

ANTONOFF: I've learned, like, well, unless I don't mind this being, like, a thing, maybe don't make this joke.

MARTIN: Did you piss someone off recently?

ANTONOFF: I think I'm constantly pissing people off.

MARTIN: (Laughter).

We've also got more with last week's guest, Poet Laureate Ada Limon, in that same WILD CARD Plus episode. Ada reads a poem of hers that is engraved on a NASA spaceship, and that spaceship is heading to a moon of Jupiter in the fall, which is just totally amazing. WILD CARD Plus is a new way to support our work here at NPR, and you get perks, like sponsor-free listening and bonus episodes with more from our guests. Check it out by going to plus.npr.org/wildcard. Next week on WILD CARD, we talk to "Saturday Night Live" star Bowen Yang.

How do you get in your own way?

BOWEN YANG: I get in my own way by, like, over-privileging the present.

MARTIN: That's so interesting 'cause everyone wants to be in the present.

YANG: Right. But sometimes, I feel like being present is overrated.

MARTIN: This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Katie Daugert and Will Chase and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. WILD CARD's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to us at [email protected]. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

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