< 'Louder Than A Riot' reckons with hip-hop's past and looks to a more inclusive future

TERRY GROSS, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Hip-hop is being celebrated this month in honor of its 50th anniversary. My guests are two music journalists who love hip-hop, cover it for NPR Music, have written extensively about it for most of their adult lives and grew up with it. But they're also not afraid to call out hip-hop when they see misogyny, homophobia or transphobia. Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden host the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. Here's how they describe this season.

RODNEY CARMICHAEL, BYLINE: And from NPR Music, this is Louder Than A Riot.

SIDNEY MADDEN, BYLINE: Where we confront the double standard that's become the standard.

CARMICHAEL: On every episode this season, we tackled one unwritten rule of hip-hop that affects the most marginalized among us and holds the entire culture back.

MADDEN: And one that a new generation of rap refuses to stand for.

GROSS: This season, they're highlighting the stories of female, gay and queer rappers who were daring enough to be themselves in spite of all the pressure to conform to the standards set by the straight, often hypermasculine men who have dominated rap for most of its history. In the first season, Louder Than A Riot investigated the connection between hip-hop and mass incarceration or, as they put it, the collision of rhyme and punishment in America. Unfortunately, Louder Than A Riot was one of the shows NPR eliminated during its recent round of budget cuts. So the current second season is also the final one. Sidney Madden, Rodney Carmichael, welcome to FRESH AIR. I've really enjoyed your podcast, and it's a pleasure to have you on the show. I'm sorry that the show was canceled, but at least you got two really good seasons out of it.

CARMICHAEL: Oh, thanks so much, Terry. We're definitely glad to be here.

MADDEN: Absolutely.

CARMICHAEL: I appreciate even knowing you've been listening, so that's great.

MADDEN: I know. We're definitely honored to be here, and we're proud of the two seasons that got us here. So thank you so much.

GROSS: What's the hip-hop track that first got you really excited about hip-hop?

CARMICHAEL: Oh, man.

MADDEN: Oh, no.

CARMICHAEL: I have a standard answer to that. It's a track that still probably is celebrated today. You probably heard it a lot this month if you were tuned in to hip-hop 50 celebrations. It's not the first hip-hop song I ever heard, but it's the first song that showed me that hip-hop, you know, could be more than just partying, for instance, you know? And it's the song by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, "The Message."

GROSS: I love this track so much. It's so well written. And, of course, Melle Mel is doing the rapping, but Duke Bootee actually wrote the lyric.

CARMICHAEL: Duke Bootee. That's right.

GROSS: And it's so good because it shows everything that's going on outside that - making the rapper wonder how he keeps from going under. And it shows both, like, anger, social commentary and vulnerability at the same time...

CARMICHAEL: Exactly.

GROSS: ...Because, you know, he's trying to prevent himself from going under and saying, like, don't push me because I'm close to the edge. So it's just so well done, and the rapping is so good on it.

CARMICHAEL: And you know, Terry, if I can say, like, that's still my favorite kind of rap song. Like, that's a whole lane of rap that, you know, continues to - like, if you look at trap, trap music is very much that lane. Quote-unquote, "gangster rap" in the '90s was very much that lane. You know, all of my favorite rappers - a lot of them talked about struggle and overcoming and, you know...

MADDEN: Tension.

CARMICHAEL: ...Insurmountable odds - all of that stuff, you know? That's hip-hop at its finest, you know?

GROSS: I'm really glad you chose this. Let's hear a little bit of it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THE MESSAGE")

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Broken glass everywhere, people pissing on the stairs - you know they just don't care. I can't take the smell, can't take the noise, got no money to move out. I guess I got no choice. Rats in the front room, roaches in the back, junkies in the alley with the baseball bat - I tried to get away, but I couldn't get far 'cause a man with a tow truck repossessed my car. Don't push me 'cause I'm close to the edge. I'm trying not to lose my head. (Vocalizing). It's like a jungle sometimes. It makes me wonder how I keep from going under. Standing on the front stoop, hanging out the window, watching...

GROSS: And, Sidney, is there a track for you that you listened to early on that really kind of made you fall in love with the music? And I realize you're younger than Rodney, so you were kind of surrounded by it. And...

MADDEN: Yeah.

GROSS: That's all you first - probably the first music you heard.

MADDEN: Yeah.

GROSS: But nevertheless, share something that was really formative for you.

MADDEN: I do vividly remember going to the supermarket and being allowed to buy "The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill" CD with my allowance and playing it back to back over and over but, you know, stopping on certain songs. And I feel like "Lost Ones" was really one of those songs for me. It just talked about, similar to Rodney, the tension, the fleeting nihilism, the diary aspect to it, and really just putting to words so much of the swirling emotions I felt coming up but never knew how to describe or never had the vocabulary of for myself.

GROSS: All right. Let's hear it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LOST ONES")

LAURYN HILL: (Rapping) It's funny how money change a situation. Miscommunication lead to complication. My emancipation don't fit your equation. I was on the humble. You on every station. Some want play young Lauryn like she dumb, but remember not a game new under the sun. Everything you did has already been done. I know all the tricks from Bricks to Kingston. My ting done made your kingdom want run. Now, understand L-Boogie non-violent, but if a thing test me, run for me gun. Can't take a threat to me newborn son. L been this way since creation. A groupie call, you fall from temptation. Now you want to ball over separation, tarnish my image in the conversation. Who you going to scrimmage like you the champion? You might win some, but you just lost one. You might win some, but you just lost one. You might win some, but you just lost one. You might win some, but you just lost one.

GROSS: OK, so that was the track chosen by Sidney Madden as one of the formative tracks that she loved in hip-hop. So why did you decide to do a season critical of hypermasculinity and misogyny in hip-hop?

MADDEN: Well, coming off the first season where, as you said, Terry, it was all about the collision of crime and punishment in America, we still wanted to examine that unique and complicated relationship. And so what we did is we shifted our lens to look inward at hip-hop on the eve of what would be its 50th birthday and reconcile some of the inequalities that hip-hop has not pushed against but actually embodied in becoming this behemoth of industry and culture. And where we're at right now with who's running hip-hop, where the barometer is at with hip-hop - we talk about it a little bit in the second season. Like, the girls and the gays are running things. Like, they are the culture crusaders at this point when you think about who is creating trends, who's starting talking points, who's ending and deading old tropes and old archetypes. And we wanted to spotlight not only those people, but kind of examine everything that has come before that they need to be pushing against in the first place.

GROSS: Rodney, were you reluctant at all to take on this theme or these themes during the season, thinking you'd get a lot of pushback from hip-hop fans for criticizing aspects of hip-hop?

CARMICHAEL: Definitely not. I think that Sidney and I were very much on the same page about Season 2 and the theme. And, you know, both Season 1 and Season 2 were very much about us taking the temperature of the culture in that moment. And when we looked around and saw what was happening and what was going on within hip-hop at that time, it was like, you know, the story, subject and theme for this season was basically being served to us. So it was well past due, but also right on time, you know. And I'm speaking specifically about Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez.

That case, you know, interestingly enough, just been resolved in the last few weeks. Tory Lanez got sentenced to 10 years. Now, when we were conceptualizing this season, the trial hadn't even started yet, you know, but the culture - hip-hop culture specifically - was reacting really strongly to what happened. And Megan Thee Stallion honestly was just taking a lot of flak, a lot of heat. And, I mean, a lot of the themes that we cover in this season were happening in real time, you know. And the case, for people that aren't familiar, was a case of Tory Lanez shooting Megan Thee Stallion after they had been at a house party in the Hollywood Hills one night.

GROSS: And she didn't come forward immediately. And when she did, a lot of people didn't believe her. And...

CARMICHAEL: Exactly. Exactly.

GROSS: ...There were even stories that, oh, she shot herself (laughter).

MADDEN: Yeah.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah, it was wild.

GROSS: Yeah. But finally, it came to trial, and he was sentenced. I want to talk with you about one of the first women who - in hip-hop, who you devote an episode to early in the season, and that's Sha-Rock. And she was in the group the Funky 4 + 1. She was the plus-one. And they are really early in the history of rap. Their first recording is 1980 on Sugarhill Records. Sugarhill was, like, the first hip-hop label. And before we talk about what happened to her, let's hear some music. So this is "That's The Joint." And we'll pick up on the part where she's rapping.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "THAT'S THE JOINT")

FUNKY 4 PLUS 1: (Rapping) She's the joint. What up, y'all? And do, do it up. And Sha-Rock is going to show you how you get real rough. I'm Sha-Rock, and I can't be stopped. For all the fly guys, I will hit the top. Well, I can do it for the ones from weak to strong. And I can do it for the ones that are right or wrong. Well, I'm listed on the column that's classified. I could be your nurse, and I'm qualified to talk about respect. I won't neglect. My strategy is for you to see. So don't turn away by what I say 'cause I'm on. I'm bad when I'm talking to you. There are four fly brothers who can do it, too. The party people in the place, this is for you. So get down. Get, get, get on down. I'm the plus one more, and I'm throwing down. She's the best female in this here town. And everybody know that I'm golden brown. And you know - she's the joint. For the young lady with nice, fine thighs...

GROSS: So that was the Funky 4 + 1, with Sha-Rock being the + 1. So they're the first group, the first hip-hop group, on "Saturday Night Live." She's the first - I think she was the first, like, recorded hip-hop female. Why was she basically shut out?

CARMICHAEL: Well, one of the big things that ends up happening to Sha-Rock that just kind of shows how different the times are now versus then is, really, at the height of the Funky 4's success, Sha-Rock gets pregnant. And the height of success for them is being the first hip-hop group to appear on "Saturday Night Live," you know? They have this really big performance. A lot of - you know, a lot of their peers at the time are upset because they feel like they should have been the group that was chosen to, you know, do this big thing, bring hip-hop to the masses on "Saturday Night Live." The Funky 4 was picked specifically because Sha-Rock was in the group. You know, this was the night that Debbie Harry was hosting the show, and she was familiar with the Funky 4 and really liked them because they were young and fresh and they had Sha-Rock, you know? And she wanted to spotlight them.

And Sha-Rock is pregnant at the time of the performance, which a lot of people in hip-hop, you know, don't find out until years later. I mean, we talked to DMC of Run-D.M.C. for this episode. He's a huge fan of Sha-Rock. He didn't know until we told him during the interview that Sha-Rock was pregnant at that time, you know? So she was hiding it at the time because she felt like it would in some way, shape or form be construed as detrimental to their success and everything they were doing. And when she told them after the show, that's what happened, you know?

Her group members did not support her, did not hold her down. And, you know, the sentiment pretty much was, man, you know, we're on the cusp here and you're messing this up right now. So there were lots of factors that went into the group splitting up. But her treatment by her group members, by hip-hop culture at that time, was really a huge part of what ended up happening and why her name, you know, has not rang out in the way that it should have, based on her being this pioneering, you know, first woman emcee.

GROSS: And compare that to how pregnancy is treated now.

CARMICHAEL: Exactly.

GROSS: I mean, hip-hop artists, like, show off their baby bump. It's a big thing that they're really proud of, that they show in various ways.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah, it's the thing now.

GROSS: Yeah.

CARMICHAEL: It's not taboo anymore, yeah.

GROSS: No, which is great. Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden, hosts of the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MISSY ELLIOTT SONG, "WORK IT")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden, hosts of the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. The current season is about misogyny, homophobia and transphobia in hip-hop and the new generation of performers who are not standing for that.

One of the stories that you did was about how the #MeToo movement basically passed by hip-hop. And to illustrate that, you tell the story of Kim Osorio, who was, like, the first female editor-in-chief of The Source, which was, for a time, the Bible of the hip-hop movement. They sponsored their own awards which were very important awards in the world of hip-hop. And she came forward and accused the magazine's owners of harassing her and discriminating against her because of her gender. And she sued the magazine and her former bosses for gender discrimination, sexual harassment, hostile work environment, retaliation and defamation.

But in 2006, when it came to trial, the claims of hostile environment or being a victim of sexual harassment and gender discrimination were dismissed. But the owners were found guilty of defaming her in interviews after they fired her, and they were convicted of firing her in retaliation.

So what are your thoughts on the #MeToo movement having passed by hip-hop? First of all, what do you mean by that?

MADDEN: Well, it was really important for us to investigate and revisit this case because when it was actually going down in the early 2000s, the big headline news from this case was more so that Kim Osorio herself, as the former editor-in-chief, was getting a little too close and personal with rappers. So it was kind of residually defaming her in the midst of her claiming that this place that she worked, that was considered the hip-hop Bible at the time, was an unsafe place for women.

And when we say it kind of - the #MeToo movement missed hip-hop - this is a case that really predates the #MeToo movement if we're thinking about the social shift that happened with the quote, unquote "#MeToo movement" in 2015. And it could have been a moment that actually theoretically started off the #MeToo movement, knowing how influential hip-hop was in the early 2000s. And the reason she was not successful on the claims of workplace harassment was around the severe and pervasive standard that was just recently done away with in the state of New York. And she presented - her and her lawyers presented all these examples of unsafe, unsavory, disgusting, icky types of moments and events that happened in the workplace. But, overall...

GROSS: Like what? What are we talking about? Yeah.

MADDEN: We're talking about pornography being hung up on the walls. We're talking about men's-only meetings where women were not allowed. You know, like, one of the former owners of the magazine would go around and touch female staffers very inappropriately - touch bra straps, gift people Victoria's Secret underwear for holiday parties. And Osorio even claims that one of the owners kind of cornered her in an elevator one night and said, we could be the king and the queen of The Source. Come on, what are you doing? And really pressed her on that. And the other owner - he was aware of all these behaviors and this culture that was being set and being allowed to rock in the magazine, in the office. And he didn't really do anything to stop it.

GROSS: So after the trial, once we get to the #MeToo movement years later, do you think the #MeToo movement had an impact on hip-hop culture and on women's ability to speak up?

MADDEN: I don't think it did, and I don't think it really has. I mean, there have been many examples in the hip-hop space and in the hip-hop music space and the hip-hop culture space where women have come forward, people have come forward, and it hasn't really made a seismic shift in how Black women and people presenting as Black women or anybody else who is not in the majority, who is not a cishet Black man, is treated in these spaces.

There's examples of people like Drew Dixon, who told her entire story of harassment and abuse at the hands of Russell Simmons, and other women have come out in speaking out against Russell Simmons, and it hasn't made any seismic type of shift. And it's not a 1-to-1 comparison. It's not a workplace - it's not workplace violence, but it is a comparable example to look at how Megan Thee Stallion was disbelieved by a lot of heavy hitters in hip-hop, was ridiculed, was made fun of, was residually harassed for years later even after being shot at by someone who she thought was her friend, another person in the hip-hop world.

And it just goes to show you that even with the pendulum swings of influence and, like, cash flow, fluidity and just popularity of Black women, Black femmes and anyone else, anyone trans in this space, who's making waves culturally - the idea that they are still not believed and respected is very much present.

GROSS: Well, let me reintroduce you here 'cause it's time for another break. If you're just joining us, my guests are Sidney Madden and Rodney Carmichael, hosts of the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ANXIETY")

MEGAN THEE STALLION: (Rapping) Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday - bad [expletive] have bad days, too. Friday, Saturday, Sunday - bounce back how a bad [expletive] always do. All I really want to hear is it'll be OK. Bounce back 'cause a bad [expletive] can have bad days. All I really want to hear is it'll be OK. Bounce back 'cause a bad [expletive] can have bad days. If I could write a letter to heaven, I would tell my mama that I shoulda been listening, and I would tell her sorry that I really been wilding and ask her to forgive me 'cause I really been trying. And I would ask, please show me who been real...

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden, hosts of the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. The current season is about misogyny, homophobia and transphobia in hip-hop and the new generation of performers who are not standing for that. The first season was about the intersection of hip-hop and mass incarceration. The title of the series, Louder Than A Riot, is a reference to Martin Luther King's quote, a riot is the language of the unheard.

So I want to talk with you about your own lives in hip-hop and how the music influenced you. Rodney, you have a whole episode about how you were influenced by the hypermasculinity and misogyny in an era of hip-hop when you were growing up. What was the image of masculinity you got from the music that you most loved?

CARMICHAEL: Well, you know, in a lot of ways, it was nuanced, especially in the beginning. I'm talking mid-'80s on up, from Big Daddy Kane and Rakim to Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince, who were definitely an early favorite of mine. You know, for every LL Cool J you had, you know, there was an MC Hammer, you know, which - though he got a lot of flack at the time for his pop leanings, he liked to dance. And, you know, I was growing up in Atlanta, and dance was very much a part of our hip-hop culture down here.

So, I mean, if you were a young Black man growing up in the '90s and you were receiving these messages of Black men being an endangered species and this war on drugs, which we now understand was really a war on Black people - the mass incarceration era is kind of getting ramped up. And there was an intensity, you know? The crack era - there was an intensity around how you present yourself as a man, and the music was reflecting that as well, you know, and a lot of my favorite rappers were hyper hypermasculine. And it was something that I fed off of because in a lot of ways it felt like it was something that I needed to be as well, you know?

GROSS: What's the image of hypermasculinity that you're describing? What goes along with that?

CARMICHAEL: I mean, NWA comes to mind. Luke and early 2 Live Crew come to mind, you know? That was there was hypersexual music. NWA, obviously - they pretty much pioneer what becomes known as gangsta rap to some or reality rap to others, but very much street and...

GROSS: 2 Live Crew, who you mentioned, they have a song that's basically about gang rape - kind of glorifying it.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah. Yeah. They had a song that I can't say the title of on air. But in a lot of ways, I think it does kind of introduce you - depending on your age at the time - I was really young when this came out - it kind of introduces you to rape culture, you know what I mean? And I guess maybe not introduces, but it makes it very casual in terms of how you think about sex, especially if you haven't had it yet, you know? And everything that you're consuming at that point in time is kind of teaching you and schooling you. And, you know, even if you had great parents at home, it's really hard to not be swayed by what you're - you know, you're internalizing your culture. You're internalizing the music. And, you know, that was definitely one of the things that I was hearing.

GROSS: How did it actually shape your behavior, or did it shape your behavior, you know, listening to lyrics by hypermasculine rappers, you know, or people posing as hypermasculine and rapping about guns and drugs and women and sex? And so did that shape your behavior as well as just, you know, fantasies and, you know, having those lyrics live in your head?

CARMICHAEL: I mean, I think it made me - it made me check my sensitivity, which is probably the first thing that happens, right? You just start to - you start to learn how to guard or hold up a guard or mask your own sensitivity out in the world.

GROSS: And vulnerability.

CARMICHAEL: And vulnerability, yeah, especially - well, both really, with other men, but most definitely with women as well - you know, women that you're interested in, women that you might have tender feelings for. But you know, you might feel like it's not necessarily cool to express that too much, you know, or be too open or vulnerable about that. You know, you learn how to pose and mask a little bit, or at least you try to.

GROSS: Sidney, what about you? You grew up with a lot of the same music. How did it affect your idea of what it meant to be female?

MADDEN: Yeah. There were messages of overt objectification, but there were also messages of being the weirdo and being successful at it. So I'm thinking like, you know, yeah, I grew up on Trina, but I also grew up on Lauryn Hill, and I also grew up on Missy Elliott, which, if you say those three names, you could think of, like, completely divergent messages and divergent paths of what those women represent in hip-hop. But to me, it was like - I was on shuffle, and I was listening to all those messages at the same time. So it's hard to say that I had one succinct and loud message about what being a Black woman was courtesy of hip-hop because I had all this variety and all this dexterity.

GROSS: Well, you had women rappers. Women were coming forward. Women were popular. So, Rodney, you talk in your very personal episode about how being a father made you hear hip-hop differently. You wanted your son to love it like you did, but you didn't want the songs to form his image of what it meant to be a man. And when he was 3 years old, you played him a Biggie track. And so the track that you mentioned that you played him in the episode is "Everyday Struggle." So I want to play just a little bit of that and...

CARMICHAEL: OK. Wow.

GROSS: OK. So we're going to play the beginning. So we'll hear the chorus.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EVERYDAY STRUGGLE")

THE NOTORIOUS B I G: Right. (Rapping) I don't want to live no more. Sometimes I hear death knocking at my front door. I'm living every day like a hustle, another drug to juggle - another day, another struggle. Right. I don't want to live no more. Sometimes I hear death knocking at my front door. I'm living every day like a hustle, another drug to juggle - another day, another struggle. Right. I know how it feels to wake up messed up, pockets broke as hell, another rock to sell. People look at you like you like you's the user selling drugs to all the losers, mad buddha abuser. But they don't know about your stress-filled day, baby on the way, mad bills to pay. Right. That's why you drink Tanqueray - so you can reminisce and wish you wasn't living so devilish.

GROSS: So that that is, in fact, a really catchy Biggie track. Why did you want to choose that track to play for your son? - because, you know, in addition to the fact that the track has a lot to do with, like, dealing drugs and having guns and stuff, it's, like, in part about death, you know, sometimes feeling like death is knocking at your door, which is a complicated concept for a 3-year-old who probably doesn't know what death is yet. So can you talk about the experience of playing that for your son and what you wished for and what you didn't wish for when you played it?

CARMICHAEL: Well, it started out much more innocently than that. My wife bought him a Biggie T-shirt, you know, which is a - it's a picture of his first album cover, Biggie's, you know, debut album cover, which - if anybody familiar knows, it's a picture of a baby that's supposed to be a likeness of Biggie. It's a baby with an afro and a diaper. You know, "Ready To Die" is the album title. And I couldn't have my son walking around representing Biggie in his T-shirt without having any clue or idea what he was wearing.

So I started playing him "Juicy," which is the big commercial single off of that album - very different kind of song. It's - you know, it's Biggie kind of projecting himself into success, which obviously he ended up attaining before he died. And, you know, it's that kind of rapper's fantasy of, you know, I'm a millionaire, and I made it. And I moved my family out of the projects, etc., etc. - gloss and glamour. But right after Biggie, the next song in the tracklist is "Everyday Struggle." I don't know. There's something about the the sample. You know, it's very catchy. You hear the melody playing. And, yeah, he just grew to like it. Obviously he doesn't know what it's about, although he always asked me what it's about.

GROSS: Yeah. It's so funny to think of a 3-year-old wanting to sing, I don't want to live no more. Sometimes...

CARMICHAEL: Yeah.

GROSS: ...I hear death knocking at my door. That's a lot.

CARMICHAEL: He doesn't know the lyrics. He does not sing along.

GROSS: Right. Right.

CARMICHAEL: But I think part of that is why I wanted to do an episode like this because I kind of - I know that I want to be armed with the conversations to be able to have with him about how to, you know, process and ingest and still have a respect for and enjoy this culture, you know, and this music that I love, you know? And a lot of these topics are very adult topics. But, you know, I think that it's better to start as a father thinking about that earlier than later. You know, I mean, hip-hop has given me a lot of things, like Sidney was saying. The gangster thing was one element, but it also gave me a love for being weird and being open. And, you know, De La Soul and A Tribe Called Quest and groups like that were my favorite, too. And I want him to develop a relationship with the range of that experience as well because it's the range of Black folks' experience in this country.

GROSS: You know, in talking about raising a son and wanting him to love hip-hop as much as you do but wanting him to, you know, think about the lyrics and all of that, you talk about how, you know, hip-hop heads obsess over their daughters and protecting their daughters. And you say when it comes to baby girls, the patriarchy don't play. But meanwhile, the same people raise their sons to, you know, be as bad as old Dad is what you say. So can you talk about trying to grapple with that as a father, you know?

CARMICHAEL: Yeah. That double standard, man - that's what the season is about. I mean, so my son is 4 now, and that's still his favorite song. I'm really trying to expose him to more rap. He wants to hear B.I.G. every day. It's like, what have I created? But my wife and I had a daughter last year. And, yeah, it was during the time of making this episode and this season. And so it was impossible to not think about the way that fathers, you know, even hip-hop fathers - there's so many songs I could think about where, you know, we're being doting dads when we think of our daughter and wanting to protect them from this and wanting to make sure we don't expose them to that.

And really, in a lot of ways, a lot of the things that we're doing with our sons is replicating. And it's going to continue to replicate the mistreatment and marginalization of women and other folks, queer folks especially. So I really felt like in terms of thinking about, what can my contribution to this be as, you know, a guy in hip-hop for a long time - I've been a hip-hop writer for a long time. I'm the co-host of this podcast. The answer to me was pretty plain. It was, like, thinking about what it is that I'm giving and gifting to the next generation, you know? And I think the best way to do that is by focusing more on my son and making sure that I don't, you know, replicate all of the kind of built-in misogyny and sexism that kind of comes with the culture and with, you know, culture at large because it's not just hip-hop, obviously, like you said.

GROSS: No, most certainly not.

CARMICHAEL: Yeah. So that was kind of the inspiration for that episode, for sure.

GROSS: OK. Let's take another break here. And then there's other things I want to talk with you about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden, hosts of the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF DICE RAW SONG, "PREGUNTA")

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sidney Madden and Rodney Carmichael, hosts of the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot.

I'd like to end by asking you to choose a current or recent recording that you love, a hip-hop recording that you love that makes you really excited about the present and future of hip-hop. Sidney, you want to start?

MADDEN: Yes. OK. So as we said earlier, the girlies are really running things in rap right now, the precursors to everything influential, everything popping. And one of my favorite tracks that's come out in in the last year - I think it actually came out last fall - is "Tomorrow 2," which is by the Memphis rapper Glorilla with a feature from Cardi B. So first of all, Cardi B has been on a legendary feature run right now in the last few years. And this Memphis and Bronx matchup is just such a great calling card for cross-cultural collaborations and showing where it can be catapulted to. It works so beautifully. The beat is sparse. It has just this, like, sinister piano to it. It's quotable, it's aspirational, and it's a whole mantra. I mean, like, I don't care about my credit score. I could be up tomorrow, OK? I don't care what you say about me today. The sun is going to shine tomorrow. I'm good, you know? It's one of those songs that you cannot be mad at after listening to. And it's heavy in my rotation and it will be forever.

GROSS: All right. Let's hear it.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TOMORROW 2")

GLORILLA: (Rapping) I can't love you, baby, like your [expletive] do, so don't leave her. He gon' (ph) choose her every time 'cause it's cheaper to keep her. Can't say your name up in my songs - might not [expletive] with you tomorrow. Can get my feelings hurt today. I won't give a [expletive] tomorrow. Ain't [expletive] up 'bout no credit score. I might be rich as [expletive] tomorrow. Every day the sun won't shine, but that's why I love tomorrows.

CARDI B: (Rapping) Riding with my twin and them, and we all look good as [expletive]. She say she my opp, but I don't know her - had to look her up. I know that I'm rich. But I can't help it, [expletive]. I'm hood as [expletive]. I've been on these [expletive] neck so long, sometimes my foot get stuck. I can't put you in my business. You might wish me dead tomorrow. [Expletive] be on [expletive] today, sing every word of "Up" tomorrow. [Expletive], I still got cases opened. Keep your mouth shut tomorrow. Play with me today then get some sleep. You know it's up tomorrow.

GROSS: OK, so that was Sidney Madden's pick for a song that's making her excited about the present and future of hip-hop. Rodney Carmichael, your turn. Can you choose something for us?

CARMICHAEL: Yeah. So I'm going to pick a song from an album that dropped earlier, in August. It's by the artist Noname, and the name of the song is "Namesake." And I like this song because she is calling out everybody, including herself, in terms of how they, you know, are active participants in capitalism. And when I say everybody, I'm talking about some of the top names in the business, you know, from Jay-Z and Beyonce and Rihanna, Kendrick Lamar. And like I said, she namechecks herself, too, for performing at Coachella. But the thing about this song that I really like is it shows that hip-hop can still be a countercultural force, you know, because it takes a lot to be an artist of Noname's caliber and to go against some of the biggest names in the industry. And really, going against the industry and calling the industry out while you're in the industry, you know, that's a hard challenge. And it really - to me, it resonates with a lot of the spirit of what hip-hop was in its infancy, when it really felt like this revolutionary art form.

GROSS: Well, let's go out with that. So before we do, I want to thank you both. Rodney Carmichael, Sidney Madden, thank you so much for joining us. And thank you for the podcast Louder Than A Riot.

MADDEN: Thank you, Terry.

CARMICHAEL: Thanks so much, Terry. We really appreciate it.

GROSS: So Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden host the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. And here's Noname.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "NAMESAKE")

NONAME: (Rapping) Yo, I never need no man. I got a little bit of love and a couple of friends. Picture me rolling up the bud in the south of Sudan. Yo, I never need no, no, no. Yo, I never need no man. I got a little bit of love and a couple of friends. Picture me rolling up the bud in the south of Sudan. Yo, I never need no, no, no. Noname - where she came? We could stand in the rain, maintain a good life. We could fry plantain. Same day the airstrikes strike down Iran, I ran into the house with a blunt in my hand. Let's smoke. I don't want to see death no more. Let's fight. They got the devil hiding in plain sight. That's you. That's me. The whole world is culpable. Why complacency float the boat the most? I don't really get it. Y'all ain't really with it. All that eat the rich, tax the rich...

GROSS: That's "Namesake" from Noname's new album "Sundial." Rodney Carmichael and Sidney Madden host the NPR hip-hop podcast Louder Than A Riot. We have more hip-hop interviews coming up before this 50th anniversary month ends. This Wednesday we plan to feature an interview with Justin Tinsley, author of a new book about Biggie Smalls. Next Monday through Labor Day we're doing a history of hip-hop series featuring interviews from our archive with several foundational hip-hop artists, including Grandmaster Flash, Melle Mel, Ice-T, Darryl McDaniels of Run-D.M.C., Queen Latifah, De La Soul, the Beastie Boys, Andre 3000, Questlove, Jay-Z and more. After we take a short break, our rock critic, Ken Tucker, will review a new album by the group Bush Tetras, which is fronted by two women. That was pretty rare when the band was founded in 1979. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF ALABAMA SHAKES SONG, "GIMME ALL YOUR LOVE")

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