An inside look at the campus protests; plus, Israel at Eurovision
BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: This week, we're connecting the dots between student journalists, campus protests and the way our leaders remember history. Now, how are these things connected? Well, we're going to find out with two student journalists - Shaanth Nanguneri, an undergraduate reporter at the University of California Los Angeles, and Claire Davenport, a graduate reporter at Columbia University in New York. Shaanth, Claire, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
SHAANTH NANGUNERI: Thank you so much, Brittany.
CLAIRE DAVENPORT: Thank you for having us.
LUSE: To jump right in, for weeks, pro-Palestinian protests have been popping up on college campuses around the world. By some counts, there are at least 90 college campuses with students camped out or, just recently, had students camped out calling for their administrations to divest their ties with Israel and, in many cases, the United States military. And this week, things escalated.
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LUSE: On Tuesday, Columbia University called on police to shut down the encampment on their university lawn. Three people were arrested.
(SOUNDBITE OF PROTEST)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Get up. Get up. Get up. Get up.
LUSE: And at UCLA, about 200 pro-Israel counterprotesters attacked a pro-Palestinian encampment.
(SOUNDBITE OF PROTEST)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Whoa, get back.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Go. Go.
LUSE: On Thursday, UCLA administrators called on police to clear the encampment. Hundreds of pro-Palestinian protesters are being detained.
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LUSE: At the time of this taping, there have been arrests made at at least 32 college campuses in the United States. So Shaanth, Claire, when you talk to your fellow students, why is protesting on behalf of Palestinians important to them? Why is it worth the risk of arrest or physical violence?
DAVENPORT: Yeah, I mean, I think of all the protesters I've spoken with, they feel like it's a small price to pay to face arrest, to face suspension, to face even expulsion when there's people in Gaza who are losing their lives. People feel really passionately that this is wrong and that they have the unique opportunity as students at institutions with visibility to say something about it.
NANGUNERI: Yeah, I remember a couple of moments walking up to folks on the perimeters of the encampment and asking why they felt talking about Palestinian experiences and Palestinian history and bringing light to causes of divestment was important. And a lot of them talked about their own personal experiences, being people of color, whether they had families that experienced colonialism, whether they had families that had historical trauma that they see in relationship to the Palestinian experience. And then we also just got a lot of students who cared about the fact that they were at a university which has a large portfolio and the power to, in their eyes, make a lot of change.
LUSE: Claire, you're at Columbia. Shaanth, you're at UCLA. Both of your campuses have been cleared. And the Columbia University president has since released a statement acknowledging the importance of protest and this cause but also condemning the damage of any property. And UCLA's president offered sympathies for those caught in the violence and condemned the attack on the encampment. What are you hearing about what happens next?
DAVENPORT: I think that the response bringing police - it's only really escalating the desire to keep protesting and to keep speaking out. Commencement is happening in a little over a week, so I expect that there will be some sort of demonstration at that. And so it's kind of hard to know when this will end. Classes are remote for the rest of the semester. Exams have been pushed back. So it certainly doesn't feel like the police being brought on was the end to the situation. It only feels kind of like the beginning of a new era or segment, you know, of things being really up in the air.
NANGUNERI: You know, so far, we have seen the encampment take a severe hit. The administration has already declared it unlawful because of that police have entered. They have cleared a significant portion of the encampment, though there are several protesters who remain...
LUSE: Wow.
NANGUNERI: ...As I can tell you right now.
LUSE: In thinking about the coverage, I stayed up late on Tuesday night, listening to Columbia University's student radio station, WKCR. And one thing that struck me was the statement the WKCR also put out this week. They said, quote, "these are our peers. These are the people we go to class with. We have the access to campus to provide nonstop coverage, to provide accurate voicing of what exactly is going on." Then another journalist I admire, Tanvi Misra, noted that students are a group or community like any other. And just like it's vital to have people from marginalized backgrounds report on their communities, it's important for students to report on their communities, as well. As student journalists, what do you think you are seeing that national journalists are missing?
DAVENPORT: Yeah, I think it's been so interesting to see, you know, from the outside when these protests are painted as really violent or inciting hate speech or being led by outsiders when that couldn't be further from the truth when you see these young people camped out, forming community, holding teach-ins, kind of having around-the-clock programming. And it's been interesting to see so much focus on the isolated incidents that have been negative on and off campus while there hasn't been much eyes on these big counter-protests that are going on that are sometimes involving members of the Proud Boys who have been on the pro-Israel side. Plus, I think people forget that at the end of the day, these are students often ages 19 to 21. They're also being taught in class that this is the time to express themselves, to fight back, learning in class about what protesting is.
LUSE: And Shaanth, you were telling me about how you saw the violence that happened on your campus was being described as a, quote-unquote, "clash" between pro-Palestinian and pro-Israel groups. What word would you use to describe the violence from that evening and why?
NANGUNERI: Yeah. I am thinking about the Google Doc in which all of us were debating how to say this. We knew from the beginning what had happened because we were there. In the sense of a clash, it sort of implies this lack of an asymmetry and that violence broke out. But the reality is a large group of counter-protesters descended upon the area. And very soon, they started violently seizing the gates and harassing the people who were standing on the front lines of it.
LUSE: I want to zoom out here because there's a deep history of student protests in the United States, even just looking at Columbia. On April 30, 1968, Vietnam War and Civil Rights protesters occupied the campus' Hamilton Hall. Fast-forward to this week, April 30, 2024, pro-Palestinian protesters occupied the exact same building. Other protest movements have occupied that same building in 1972, 1985, 1992, 1996. Is this history on the minds of the students at these protests?
DAVENPORT: Oh, most definitely. The symbolism of the date being the same, April 30, was lost on no one who led the occupation of Hamilton Hall. And, yeah, I think these protesters see themselves as the current piece in a long history of this sort of action on campus.
And I've heard from a lot of people, they're intrigued to see how history will remember them. There's all of this pushback right now, but the sense being that maybe in 20 years, 30 years, this will be something that is taught about and taught about in a positive light, just as that '68 protest - you know, at the time, I believe 700 people were arrested. The administrative response was very strong. And...
LUSE: Wow.
DAVENPORT: ...Now it's something that Columbia's proud of - you know? - and talks about in a very positive way as a draw. Yeah.
LUSE: It's on the university website.
DAVENPORT: (Laughter).
LUSE: I saw they had a commemorative web portal, basically, on the university website dedicated to 1968 and the uprisings that happened at Columbia.
DAVENPORT: Exactly. Yeah.
LUSE: It's very different than...
DAVENPORT: (Laughter).
LUSE: ...How it was perceived at the time. Yeah.
DAVENPORT: Yeah. And I think that happens with a lot of Civil Rights leaders, as well. You know, people forget at the time that people were considered revolutionary for a reason. And I think that's something that's been on the minds of the protesters - how this will go down in history and how they'll be remembered. And I think that's been a real driver of their actions.
NANGUNERI: Yeah. I want to echo that. I think one thing that I notice on my campus is we have faculty camped out with our students. We have a Faculty for Justice in Palestine. And...
LUSE: I saw that.
NANGUNERI: ...They're the ones delivering that history. Although students may not be in class and we have had classes canceled, they're still in there, learning and talking to people who have different experiences than them, different perspectives, and opening their minds that way. The parallels are super important to these protesters. But it's also the fact that those parallels happen because there's this generational continuity in the activism.
LUSE: You know, as we're winding down this conversation, I'm wondering - this has been such a monumental week in America's history and the history of each of your universities. And I also imagine - not to speak for you - in each of your lives, as well. What moment from this week can you not stop thinking about? What image do you think you'll remember for years to come?
DAVENPORT: You know, the night the police came in. We were aware that they were going to come. You know, we had some forewarning. And the protesters knew, as well. And so a bunch of us student journalists were just kind of camped out in front of Hamilton Hall. And we were all just waiting. There was just these 25 to 30 young people, probably undergraduates, and they were linking arms, and they were just singing. And it wasn't the usual protest chants. It was just these beautiful songs.
And the police came on campus in riot gear. It was right after the sun set. And I'll never forget that - seeing these students singing, a couple of them crying, and just kind of the disproportionality of the number of police who were coming to face them. It felt so incongruous. And then we were forced to leave - us and the legal observers and the medics - and this moment of walking away from those 25 people and wondering what was going to happen to them.
LUSE: What an image. My gosh.
NANGUNERI: Yeah. The feeling of walking away is a really big one, especially because that night, when the pro-Israel counter-protesters came and sort of seized upon the barricade and really attacked the pro-Palestinian camp - the sight of, for hours, people screaming, where are police? Where are law enforcement? I did walk back that day, and I did experience a very unfortunate assault alongside three of my other student journalists. I don't think that that's something I will ever forget. And I think that that's what these moments of history can really tend to do.
LUSE: Well, Claire, Shaanth, thank you so much for taking the time. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming and sharing with us and giving us a picture of what's happening in your communities. Thank you so much.
DAVENPORT: Thank you so much for having me.
NANGUNERI: Thank you so much.
LUSE: That was Claire Davenport, a student journalist at Columbia University, and Shaanth Nanguneri, a student journalist at the University of California, Los Angeles.
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LUSE: I'm going to take a quick break. And when I get back, I'm getting into why an Israeli song is causing a big stir in Europe.
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LUSE: I'll be right back.
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LUSE: My next big question is, what can a song contest tell us about Israel's relationship with Europe? This week, we're diving into Eurovision. For those who don't know, it's a yearly song competition that begins in just a few days. It's kind of like "American Idol," but European.
(SOUNDBITE OF "EUROVISION SONG CONTEST")
MANS ZELMERLOW: (Singing) It's a multinational competition with a collaborative mission, so much like the Olympics in a way.
LUSE: Countries pick contestants to represent their nation, and these musicians get sent off to compete with one song that they think could be the best song in all of Europe. The prize? Basically just bragging rights.
(SOUNDBITE OF "EUROVISION SONG CONTEST")
GRAHAM NORTON: Two hundred forty-three points. We have a winner. Sweden.
LUSE: It started way before "American Idol" did. The Eurovision Song Contest has been around since the 1950s. And Americans have felt its impact even if we didn't realize it. Celine Dion, ABBA.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WATERLOO")
ABBA: (Singing) Waterloo.
LUSE: Eurovision shot both of them to global stardom. But it does more than just launch stars. It's a battle of nations, which means even if it's just a song contest, there's going to be a political undercurrent.
PAUL DAVID FLOOD: It's not just interesting for all - there can be outfits in songs. It tells us a lot about how countries engage with one another and how countries want to be perceived.
LUSE: That's Paul David Flood. He's a literal Eurovision scholar who is writing a Ph.D. dissertation on it.
FLOOD: Who gets to be European, and what does Europeanness look and sound like?
LUSE: And this year, there are even more questions swirling around Eurovision, mainly about Israel's participation. Now, if you're confused, there are a few non-European countries that have participated in Eurovision - Australia, Armenia, Morocco and Israel, which has sent musicians since 1973. But this year, there's a lot more debate around Israel's participation because of the conflict in Gaza. And it's gotten heated. So today, I'm talking with Paul about Israel's song and dance at Eurovision and why Americans might want to pay attention.
Paul, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
FLOOD: Thanks for having me.
LUSE: Our pleasure, our pleasure. OK, so I know on a global level just how impactful and how huge Eurovision is. It easily surpasses the Super Bowl in terms of viewership. But I have to admit that, like, I wasn't really aware of it until a few years ago (laughter).
FLOOD: Yeah.
LUSE: I only became aware of it because a friend of mine who's a journalist was covering it, and she was talking about it, and I was like, girl, I don't know what you're talking about. And I googled it on the sly (laughter). But that experience is not uncommon for an American. I saw a...
FLOOD: Sure.
LUSE: ...Study that found that only 20% of Americans have even heard of Eurovision.
FLOOD: Yes.
LUSE: Why do you think it might be important for us to pay attention this year?
FLOOD: I've been a fan of this thing since 2011. No one knew what it was at the time, but, like, fast-forward to 2024, I talk to people, and I meet people, and I'm like, oh, I study Eurovision, and they're like, oh, I know this song. I saw the Will Ferrell movie, right? And so it is becoming increasingly present in U.S. American culture, even if we aren't directly involved or impacted by it.
LUSE: You know, there's a lot going on in the world this year. Like...
FLOOD: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Give me a preview of all the tensions going into this year's competition. Particularly, like, what's the story of Israel's involvement in the contest this year?
FLOOD: Come about February, it's announced that Israel's song is titled "October Rain."
LUSE: Oh, yes. I heard about that.
FLOOD: Yes. So the song is initially titled "October Rain." Some excerpts of the lyrics include like, they were all good children. The word flowers came up a lot, and flowers is IDF code for more casualties. And so there are a lot of blatant references. The sort of last line of the chorus says I'm still wet from this October rain. The European Broadcasting Union, which is EBU - that's the major organizer of the contest - was like, hey, you can't send this. This is too political. This is breaching our rules.
And so Israel says, OK, and they try again with a song called "Dance Forever." But the EBU also said that it was in breach of the rules against songs having political nature. So Israel doubles down, and they're like, OK, we are sending "October Rain, " or we're out. Like, we have to send this song. Then in comes Israeli president, Isaac Herzog, who basically says, no, Israel needs to be at Eurovision. We need to make these changes. We have to be there because we have to present Israel in a positive light to an audience of 100 million viewers around the globe.
LUSE: Just for understanding on my part. Like, how common is it for a president to get directly involved in a Eurovision decision or deliberation? Like...
FLOOD: Very rare.
LUSE: OK. OK.
FLOOD: This is pretty unprecedented (laughter).
LUSE: OK. OK. And then what happens?
FLOOD: And then they changed the lyrics. So "October Rain" is now called "Hurricane."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "HURRICANE")
EDEN GOLAN: (Singing) I'm still breaking from this hurricane, this hurricane.
FLOOD: And the EBU approves the song. So "Hurricane" is now Israel's official entry for the 2024 Eurovision Song Contest.
LUSE: I wonder, what does Israel get out of participating in Eurovision?
FLOOD: The contest has grown in its international audience. And so Israel then gets to present themselves in the light that they want to be seen in through song and particularly alongside European nations in this contest that effectively upholds Western social and political values.
LUSE: The way you're talking about it, it kind of reminds me of the Olympics. Like, it's about...
FLOOD: Yes.
LUSE: ...Sports, but it's, like, not just about sports.
FLOOD: Exactly.
LUSE: So Eurovision bills itself as not political, and yet countries try to use the song contest to share political songs. From what I understand, Israel's not the first to do this.
FLOOD: Absolutely. One of my favorite examples is from 2009, when the contest was held in Moscow, Russia, after Russia had their first victory in 2008. Also, in 2008, Russia is at war with Georgia, a former Soviet state in the Caucasus regions.
LUSE: Right.
FLOOD: So the song that they chose to represent Georgia in the 2009 contest in Moscow, Russia, is a song by a group called Stefane & 3G, which is titled "We Don't Wanna Put In."
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WE DON'T WANNA PUT IN")
STEPHANE AND 3G: (Singing) We don't want to put in...
LUSE: Oh, like put in, P-U-T-I-N.
FLOOD: Yes.
LUSE: How did that go over?
FLOOD: Well, it's a disco song, so it kind of slaps.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WE DON'T WANNA PUT IN")
STEPHANE AND 3G: (Singing) Some disco tonight. Boogie with you.
FLOOD: But the EBU was like, you cannot send this. This is very, very clearly a slight against Russia, against Vladimir Putin. And Georgia did not budge, so they ended up withdrawing ultimately.
LUSE: So there is a precedent for Israel to be told to change its song because it's too spicy. But there's also precedent for countries to be straight-up barred from entering the contest because of their global conflicts, like when Russia was banned a few years ago after they invaded Ukraine in 2022. Can you lay that out?
FLOOD: Yeah. At the time, there were lots of calls for Russia to be removed from the contest. The EBU was like, no, no, no. Like, we're not going to remove Russia. This is an apolitical event, right? And then national broadcasters, other participating broadcasters begin threatening to pull out of the contest if Russia were to remain in the 2022 contest. So...
LUSE: Oh.
FLOOD: ...The EBU made a statement saying that there would be no Russian act at the 2022 Eurovision Song Contest. Quote, "the decision reflects concern that in light of the unprecedented crisis in Ukraine, the inclusion of a Russian entry in this year's contest would bring the competition into disrepute, " end quote. The EBU is concerned about bringing the contest into disrepute by having it be directly engaged with ongoing geopolitical events.
LUSE: Interesting.
FLOOD: So fast-forward to 2024. Russia-Ukraine is very different from Israel-Palestine. These two conflicts are not the same, nor should they be treated the same. But that said, a lot of fans are comparing EBU's lack of banning Israel to the EBU's banning of Russia in 2022. This is largely because of how much media attention there is on this year's contest because of Israel's participation, the drama regarding the song selection and also the fact that the BDS movement officially called for a boycott of the contest.
LUSE: BDS, meaning the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement.
FLOOD: And specifically, not just the Israeli song but the contest as a whole - tune out for the whole thing, with the argument that by allowing Israel to participate, the EPU and its viewers are complicit in Israel's use of Eurovision as what scholars have argued is a pinkwashing tool. A lot of fans are confused and frustrated because they recognize this as a double standard.
LUSE: Right. There are open letters from artists of different nations calling it exactly that, a double standard after Israel has killed tens of thousands of people in its attacks in Gaza. And protests are already starting in this year's host city of Malmo, Sweden.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: And to have banned Russia in the past for its ground invasion of Ukraine and its bombardment campaign there, but then to allow Israel to participate, which is not even a member of Europe. For what?
LUSE: I mean, of course, there are also many people who support Israel's involvement and are circulating letters affirming the EBU's decision to keep it in. You know, one of those letters was signed by celebrities like Helen Mirren and Scooter Braun. Basically, they're saying that Israel absolutely has a place in a contest that's supposed to be apolitical and about unity. But I don't know, it's interesting to me. I imagine one of the differences between these situations...
FLOOD: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Is that Russia could be seen as more immediately threatening...
FLOOD: Yeah.
LUSE: ...To the rest of Europe. You know, It's actively invading Ukraine. It also has, like, a long adversarial history with the former Soviet bloc, among other countries in Europe. There's a past and a present threat there. Whereas Israel, as a nation, it doesn't have the same history of conflict within Europe. But I also see how, you know, because of the different histories of conflict, there could be a different view of who should be allowed to compete...
FLOOD: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Within the realm of Eurovision.
FLOOD: Absolutely. I mean, Russia has long historically been positioned as a threat to the West, to Western economy, Western politics, Western society. Whereas Israel was established as effectively an ally to the West, if not just straight-up part of the West. And so that plays out. These statements against Russia's participation from national broadcasters were not getting that same pressure against Israel. And so because there isn't that pressure from other participating national broadcasters, the EBU is less likely to act in the same way that they did with Russia.
LUSE: So I wonder, what does Israel's participation in this year's Eurovision Song Contest say about how Europe views Israel right now?
FLOOD: It's hard to say, I think, because, you know, governments and publics can have very different opinions on things. It's not standard across the board, and it can differ from country to country. For example, like, Iceland is very pro-Palestine, to the extent where they actually almost sent a Palestinian to represent them in the contest this year.
LUSE: Wow.
FLOOD: And because of that, for a while, Iceland was No. 1 in the betting odds.
LUSE: Oh, really?
FLOOD: Yeah. Because people figured that if Iceland sends a Palestinian, they're probably going to get the same treatment as Ukraine did in 2022 with massive, massive support from the public televote, ultimately winning the contest. So people were thinking that the same thing would happen for Iceland if they sent the Palestinian singer Bashar Murad.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "WILD WEST")
BASHAR MURAD: (Singing) 'Cause I'm going to the wild, wild west where the only rest is for the wicked. Where even if you do your best...
FLOOD: Bashar Murad was ultimately not chosen. Iceland then plummeted in the betting odds.
LUSE: We've been talking a lot about the geopolitics of all this. But what aspect of this is just entertainment?
FLOOD: As I mentioned before, it's geopolitical theater with an emphasis on theater. Because "Eurovision" has this reputation for being gimmicky and campy, but in such a way that draws people's attention to the ways in which countries are presenting themselves, actively participating in and responding to geopolitical events.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: Paul, thank you so much for joining me today. This was so informative. I learned so much.
FLOOD: Thank you so much. I had a lot of fun.
LUSE: Thanks again to Ph.D. candidate Paul David Flood. And one more thing to add here. After we talked to Paul, "Eurovision" organizers shared a rule that only the flags of participating countries, as well as pride flags, can be brought to the competition this year, which means no Palestinian flags allowed. Now, whether participants and the audience adhere to that, we'll just have to wait and see. The "Eurovision Song Competition" begins on Tuesday, May 7. I'm going to take a quick break, and when I get back, I've got some good friends in the hot seat for a little game inspired by Zendaya, bisexuality and the movie everyone is obsessed with. I'll be right back.
(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")
LUSE: All right, all right. We're going to play a little game I like to call But Did You Know? And today, I've got the hosts of Pop Culture Happy Hour with me - Linda Holmes and Stephen Thompson. Say hi, y'all.
STEPHEN THOMPSON, BYLINE: Hello.
LINDA HOLMES, BYLINE: Hi, Brittany.
LUSE: So happy to have you both here.
THOMPSON: D'aw.
LUSE: I'm so glad. All right. All right. This is how the game works.
THOMPSON: All right.
LUSE: I'm going to share a story that's been making headlines this week, and as I give you some background on the story, I'll also ask you trivia related to it. But don't worry, it's all multiple-choice. And the first one to blurt out the right answer gets a point. The person with the most points wins, and their prize is, as always, bragging rights. Now, this week's game is all about Zendaya's bisexual nail-biter "Challengers." Have either of you seen it?
HOLMES: We have.
THOMPSON: We've both seen it. We saw it together.
LUSE: So since you've both seen the film, you know that "Challengers" is all about tennis. There's a lot of debate, believe it or not, about whether a tennis ball is green or yellow. But one thing we do know is that before tennis was broadcast on television, the ball used to be which of these colors? Is it A, white, B, orange, or C, red?
HOLMES: Orange.
LUSE: We've got Linda saying orange and Stephen, what say you?
THOMPSON: I'm going to say red.
LUSE: All right. Stephen said C, red. You were both wrong.
(SOUNDBITE OF BUZZER BUZZING)
THOMPSON: (Laughter) Linda and I are very evenly matched.
HOLMES: Yeah. Well, this is how our friendship has survived for 20 years is that...
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: ...We tend to both be wrong most of the time.
LUSE: That's good. That's good. Even though neither of you got to point this round, I'll give you a little prize in the form of a little fun fact. Tennis balls used to be either white or black. But once the sport started being televised, the league had to change the color because white or black was too hard for viewers at home to see.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
HOLMES: You don't know that they were never orange, Brittany.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
LUSE: You know what? You're right. That wasn't the question, but you raise a very good - you raise a very good point, Linda.
THOMPSON: Can you prove?
HOLMES: Can you prove there was never an orange tennis ball? I don't think so.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: Well, OK, so no one picked up a point this first round, but maybe it'll happen in the second round, OK? Onto our next "Challengers"-inspired trivia question. A real-life tennis analyst and U.S. Open winning coach taught the leads of the movie all...
HOLMES: Brad Gilbert.
LUSE: ...About tennis.
THOMPSON: Oh.
LUSE: Yes. Exactly. His name is Brad Gilbert.
THOMPSON: I just saw that Coco Gauff's coach trained Zendaya. So my answer would have been D, Coco Gauff's coach.
LUSE: Well, let's keep going. Let's keep going. So his name is Brad Gilbert, and he sat in the stands at Pepperdine University with Zendaya to teach her all about the sport. Which of these players is he currently the coach of?
THOMPSON: Coco Gauff.
LUSE: I mean, I guess there's no real way around this.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: I didn't get to give you answers A or C.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: But the correct answer is B, Coco Gauff.
THOMPSON: Wow, who would have thunk it?
LUSE: Coco became the first teenager to win the U.S. Open last year since Serena Williams won it back in 1999. Brad Gilbert said training Zendaya prepared him to train Coco, which I'm like, I need a follow-up to that 'cause I'm like, what did you mean by that? What does that...
HOLMES: I know.
LUSE: ...Mean?
HOLMES: Something has happened.
LUSE: What does that mean? But I wonder, did you all think Zendaya was a believable tennis player? Like, was she giving Coco Gauff on screen for y'all?
THOMPSON: I mean, I think she was giving Zendaya. And I think that Zendaya performance is fantastic. Whether she's evoking any specific tennis player never entered my mind as somebody who's a pretty casual tennis fan.
HOLMES: Yeah. I thought she was a very believable, very intense athlete. And...
LUSE: Yes.
THOMPSON: Right.
HOLMES: ...That's what I bought. And I think this will be and should be her Oscar nomination.
LUSE: Ooh, OK.
THOMPSON: Wow.
LUSE: OK.
THOMPSON: That's bold. For a movie that came out in April, that's bold.
LUSE: I know. Linda, she's getting out ahead of it. How about that? She's getting out ahead of it.
HOLMES: I'm nothing but bold today.
LUSE: Nothing but bold today. All right, all right. Well, I'm hoping that boldness will serve you in our third and final question because, to recap the score, Linda, you are still at zero points, and Stephen, you are currently at one point. And in a situation like this, where we've got one point on the board for one player and we have one last question, this is going to be a winner takes all.
THOMPSON: Oh.
LUSE: This is going to be a winner takes all.
THOMPSON: Oh, so the first questions were completely irrelevant.
LUSE: No, they weren't completely irrelevant, but this one, admittedly, is a little trickier, and also - I also just like the idea of someone winning. So that's what's going to happen. I've changed the rules.
THOMPSON: All right.
LUSE: OK, so this is our final question. Winner takes all.
THOMPSON: Wow, OK.
LUSE: As we know, this movie has got some hot and steamy love scenes. I'm not going to get too into that. However, the word love is also used a lot on the tennis court. You know, like, when the announcer says, like, three-love. Love in this context means three-zero, right? But what's the origin...
HOLMES: Egg...
LUSE: ...Of that? Using Love to mean zero and tennis. Is it A, from players playing tennis for the love of the sport? Is it B, from the French word for egg...
HOLMES: Egg.
LUSE: ...Oeuf, which - and egg being shaped like a zero? Or is it C, from who knows where? We have no idea why this even started happening.
HOLMES: Well, I have always heard it was the egg, but I have a feeling that it's not the egg. But I have always heard it was the egg, so I'm just going to say egg one...
LUSE: OK.
HOLMES: ...More time.
LUSE: So Linda is saying B, egg.
THOMPSON: So Linda has seemed very confident this entire time that it's about the egg. I have no choice in the interest of a clean victory or defeat to guess that it is C, nobody knows.
LUSE: Wow. This is stunning, actually.
THOMPSON: It's A, right?
LUSE: Stephen, the answer is C, we...
THOMPSON: Yes.
LUSE: ...Have no idea.
(SOUNDBITE OF CORRECT ANSWER)
LUSE: Nobody actually knows.
HOLMES: I mean, you can't really say we don't know. I know...
LUSE: Well...
HOLMES: ...Clearly. You can tell I knew.
LUSE: Well, allow me to continue. Allow me to continue. Nobody actually knows the confirmed origin. This is a term, love, it's been used in tennis since the late 1800s. But nobody knows where it came from. The love of the game theory and also the egg theory are both theories tossed around, but are not proven to be the actual origin. So, Stephen, you have won today's round...
THOMPSON: Yes.
LUSE: ...Of But Did You Know? Congrats to Stephen on your win.
HOLMES: Congratulations, Stephen. Our friendship is over.
THOMPSON: Wow. You know what? Worth it. Worth it.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: Oh, gosh. Well, Linda and Stephen, thank you so much for joining me today. This was a blast and a half.
HOLMES: Thank you. It's always good to see you, Brittany, even when I lose.
LUSE: That was NPR's Linda Holmes and Stephen Thompson.
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LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
BARTON GIRDWOOD, BYLINE: Barton Girdwood.
ALEXIS WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Alexis Williams.
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Engineering support came from Stu Rushfield. We have fact-checking help from...
CANDICE VO KORTKAMP, BYLINE: Candice Vo Kortkamp.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
VERALYN WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Verlayn Williams.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
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