BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: This week we're looking at one of the most familiar tropes in media about teenagers - the cheerleader. She's popular. She's bubbly. She's talented. And she might have a mean streak. You know her. You may hate her, or you may want to be her. You've seen her in movies like "Grease"...
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UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS: (As characters) Do a split. Give a yell. Throw a fit for old Rydell.
LUSE: ...TV shows like "Glee"...
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NAYA RIVERA: (As Santana Lopez) When I look at a person, I don't see someone who looks a certain way. I just see someone who I may or may not have to destroy.
LUSE: ...And even the depths of Taylor Swift's discography.
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TAYLOR SWIFT: (Singing) She wears short skirts. I wear T-shirts. She's cheer captain and I'm on the bleachers.
LUSE: It almost feels like any teen TV show or movie would be incomplete without a snobby cheerleader somewhere in the mix. But after a while, these representations start to blend together and form a powerful, tight narrative about who gets to be a cheerleader.
DEVERY JACOBS: Everybody's immediate impulse is to look at the tiny, straight white woman who is on the top of the pyramid or is the top girl.
LUSE: That's actor Devery Jacobs, who you may recognize from "Reservation Dogs" or from Marvel's "Echo." But now she's the star and co-producer of "Backspot," a new cheerleading drama directed by D.W. Waterson.
JACOBS: We're looking at the athletes of color who are the foundation of these squads, who are the bases, who are the backspots who are literally holding up these pyramids and catching these girls as they fall.
LUSE: The backspot is the person that makes sure that those high-flying cheerleaders at the top of the pyramid make it to the ground safely, saving backs, ankles, and sometimes lives. In the film, Devery plays Riley, a queer, Indigenous backspot whose dedication to the sport lands her a place on an all-star team called the Thunder Hawks. It also pushes her to the edge of her limits. Today, we're talking to Devery about redefining the cheerleader film and the pushback she got from Hollywood as an Indigenous storyteller.
Devery, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
JACOBS: Thank you so much for having me.
LUSE: Oh, my gosh - absolutely our pleasure. I think when most people think of the quintessential cheerleader movie, "Bring It On" is one of the first titles that comes to mind, if not the first.
JACOBS: Of course. I mean, come on.
LUSE: (Laughter) And so, I mean, it defined, I think, the way many people think about the sport of cheerleading. What new thing did you and your collaborators want to say about cheerleading?
JACOBS: For sure. I mean, I had been producing "Backspot" for over six years with the incredible D.W. Waterson, the director and producer of the film. And D.W. said something that really resonated with me is that we're standing on the shoulders of these films, and we're moving the conversation forward. A lot of people - when they think of cheerleading, they think of pom poms, they think of cheering on, like, male-dominated sports.
And actually, all-star cheer specifically - they're not cheering on anybody else. They are cheering on themselves. They are real athletes in their own right, and I don't know that people put respect on cheerleaders' names in the way that they should. And so approaching "Backspot," we wanted to make sure that we were looking at cheerleading as a sport first and foremost, showing the athleticism, showing the brutality, showing the joy of it.
LUSE: That makes me think about some experiences that you've had in your past. Our listeners are going to recognize you from shows like "Reservation Dogs" on Hulu or "Echo" on Disney+. But before you did all that, you were a competitive gymnast.
JACOBS: Yeah.
LUSE: I wasn't in gymnastics or cheer when I was in high school, but I did poms, which is very Midwestern and slightly different in some ways but very similar in some ways. But it was a very girl-dominated sport. And I remember getting so much out of being in that environment. And I still use so many of the lessons that I learned back then, doing what I do today, which is completely different. But I wonder, what did competitive gymnastics give you that's helped you later in life?
JACOBS: Oh, my gosh, it's given me so much, whether it's discipline, whether it's dedication, an ability to push myself. It also gave me a lot of injuries. I quit because of my busted-ass gymnast knees. And that was something that I was really aware of going into training for "Backspot" to make sure that I was protected and to make sure that I was physically able to do it because I did all of my own stunts in "Backspot" except for one.
But I would never, ever have been able to perform as Riley in this film had I not had a background as a gymnast. The difference between gymnastics and cheer with gymnastics, I feel like it's more individualized where sure, there's pressure to perform, and the only person you're accountable to is yourself. I think there's honestly more pressure when it comes to cheer because we scouted cheer squads, and we went to competitions in preparation for "Backspot" over these past six years.
LUSE: Oh, wow.
JACOBS: We worked really closely with Cheer Fusion All-Stars, which is the only Black-owned cheer squad in the country here.
LUSE: Wow.
JACOBS: Going to competitions and seeing one girl fall during her tumbling line or during a stunt, and you see her shatter. Like, you see her emotions shatter because she knows that she deducted points not only for herself but for that entire team. And on the other side of that coin, it's also some of the most beautiful camaraderie and love and sense of family on this team. When we were filming "Backspot," D.W. - they said for the final performance, I want it to be in a oner. All in one shot, one continuous take. We had to do the full out, which is when you do the whole routine, all of the stunts, all of the jumps, everything. It's exhausting.
LUSE: Right.
JACOBS: Max amount of full outs - like, a team will do would be two or three in a practice. And even then, people are sweating. People are exhausted after it.
LUSE: Right. They're panting. Yeah.
JACOBS: What you see in the film was our 12th take, and that's what made it in. But on take 11, I was like, I'm done. I fell on it. I was like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do it anymore. But all of the cheerleaders rallied around me, and we're just like, no, we got this one. We're going to do it one last one. We're going to finish strong. It was just that sense of family, and I was like, OK, I'm doing it for you guys.
LUSE: (Laughter).
JACOBS: We did it, and that's what you see in the movie. It all came together In that one and final take.
LUSE: Wow. I mean, that's how it really is. It's actually how it really, really is. When I think about some of the biggest cheerleading movies that we've seen in the past, like "But I'm A Cheerleader" and "Bring It On," there's a lot of overlap between your character, Riley, and some of the main characters from these films. But Riley is totally different. She is this young Indigenous woman, and she also is queer. And that's something that isn't really remarked upon by her teammates or by any of her friends. I appreciated in the film how the character of Riley felt like a real person, like a real girl...
JACOBS: Yeah.
LUSE: ...And also out of the mold, I think, of how many people conceive of a cheerleader. I don't know. Like, talk to me about your approach both as an actor and a producer in thinking about building the character of Riley.
JACOBS: Me being Indigenous will always influence me as an artist and my voice and my perspective on the world. And when creating "Backspot," it's first and foremost a queer film. I really love to draw on stories that reflect my identities, either as a queer person or as an Indigenous person. In the case with Riley, we really wanted to make this a queer film that was something that we needed to see growing up. For us, it was really important not to have the conflict be in the queerness, but the conflict...
LUSE: Right.
JACOBS: ...Was in the sport of cheer. And we wanted to show families who were accepting of their queer kids that is not a traumatic coming out story. We wanted to move past that conversation. So often in film and TV when you have conversations of queerness, it's solely romantic relationships. It's either coming out, or it's finding, like, couples. But we exist in community with each other. Like, it's so rare to find a queer person who is like their one gay friend in a sea of straight and cis people. So for us, we wanted to move away from all of those tropes and bring it into the reality that both me and D.W. experience as queer people in the world now.
And then on the other side of being an Indigenous person who will always bring my identity to all of the projects that I do and producing the project, when we were gathering funding, one of the funders said, we love the story, but we didn't select you for this round. And we asked for some feedback, and they said, well, we just didn't understand why the lead character was Indigenous. And for me...
LUSE: What does - what? They didn't understand why - they didn't understand the lead character's identity. Like, just...
JACOBS: Yeah.
LUSE: ...The person being...
JACOBS: Oh, for sure.
LUSE: OK.
JACOBS: And so for me, there are so many Native women in sports who aren't living on their reservations, aren't living on the res. But, like, the fact that they were questioning our validity on this and the perspective of the film, for me, just really defined how narrow of a view people have of modern-day Indigenous people. Like, because it wasn't about colonial trauma and set on the res, then they didn't understand it. But I'm Indigenous. I'm Mohawk. I'm queer. I didn't go to gymnastics meets growing up and people would be like, excuse me, but why are you Native, though? It makes no sense. And after that point, we were really discouraged, but we kept fighting and kept trying to gather funding.
And around that time, I had a general meeting with Pageboy Productions and did not expect Elliot Page to be on the call, but he was, and I, like, geeked the hell out. I don't usually get star struck by people, but there are very few specific people I do, and he is definitely one of them. But I talked to him about "Backspot," and I was telling him the struggles we were facing. And he's like, how is this possible? This movie sounds so great. And Elliot and his team asked to read a draft of the script, and they came on board. As it happens, like, all of the floodgates kind of flew open in terms of funding for us. And we were able to get it off the ground thanks to Elliot lending his voice and opening doors.
LUSE: That's so interesting. You know, you've worn many hats as a creator. You were a staff writer on "Reservation Dogs" and also...
JACOBS: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Directed an episode. Now with "Backspot," you're a producer. With each role, it seems like you get to interact with a story from a different vantage point. Talk to me about how each of these creative roles has kind of, like, informed the other.
JACOBS: I think that they are all intrinsically entwined. I consider myself to be a storyteller first and foremost, whether that's in front of the camera, whether that's behind the camera. And I think if I'm on one side of the camera for too long, I get, like, itchy feet, and I'm like...
LUSE: (Laughter).
JACOBS: ...I need to move over to another department for a minute. But yeah, I think as an actor, it's freeing and playful, and there's so much experience in your body that's really incredible. But then there's zero sense of control, and you don't have a say over the cut or, like, anything, which is fine. And I'm, like, more than happy to help directors realize their vision. And I also need to be able to tell stories from my perspective, too, whether that's a producer or a writer or director. But yeah, each of them fills a different side of me and is definitely, like, a different gear shift. I think I'm going to be doing all of them forever in different capacities.
LUSE: That's so interesting. I mean, that seems to be a theme for you within at least part of your career, working on independent projects or kind of smaller or artistically driven productions like "Reservation Dogs" and "Backspot." But you've also been on big budget projects for giant companies, like your role on the Marvel show "Echo" and voicing an animated character on "What If...?" - both of which are on Disney+. I wonder, like, how has it felt to bring your experience and assert your vision to, like, a mega media conglomerate like Marvel or Disney.
JACOBS: Yeah.
LUSE: How do you manage to sort of keep your voice and assert yourself when you know, you're working in a totally different way than some of the more independent productions that we've been discussing?
JACOBS: I mean, I think integrity for me is something that's really important. I need to be able to look at myself in the mirror at the end of every day. I need to be able to face my community. And I always ask myself before every decision if it's something that would make my tota (ph) proud and my grandmother proud. I don't know. I think depending on the role, if there's something that I feel uncomfortable with, I speak up. I am the actor who comes with notes. I am somebody who is very respectful when I'm in an actor's position that - I am not a filmmaker on this.
And I also come with some input as well of wanting to make sure that it's reading right, that it's accurate, that playing Kahhori and voicing Kahhori in "What If...?" - making sure that Kawennahere was accurately represented and that I was taking the time to sound my best like a first-language Mohawk speaker and make sure the cadence was as right as I could possibly get it.
As Native people, it's like you are who you're in relation to. And you're not only an individual. You're also among a collective, and there's a real sense of duty in that. Why would anybody try to, like, clamor to get to the top alone if they're just going to be by themselves when they get there? It's about finding that community and creating the art that you needed to see.
LUSE: Well, Devery, I appreciate this conversation so much. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with us today.
JACOBS: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much for having me and talking to me about cheer (laughter).
LUSE: That was actress and producer Devery Jacobs. You can find "Backspot" screening at a theater near you.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Hey, Brittany.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Hey, Brittany.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Hey, Brittany.
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ANDREA: Hey, Brittany. This is Andrea (ph) in Boston. I was listening to the segment about dating apps. And I thought your guests were missing an important factor in online dating and dating in general, which is the high cost of just about everything. How can you say that love is free and then go on to mention that the founder of Bumble met her husband on a ski trip? I'm pretty sure a ski trip costs more than six months of the paid version of Bumble.
And nights out can be really expensive, too, which, cynically, is something that Bumble is using to try to get more people to pay for the app. I've been using the free version, but they ain't wrong. I did recently go to a speed dating event. I didn't even really click with anyone, but it was fun, and it was efficient, and I would do it again. That being said, it costs $48, so I probably won't sign up again for a few months. Anyway, love the show, and I would love to hear more about how Brittany met her husband on OKCupid. Bye.
LUSE: Andrea in Boston, thank you so much for listening, and thank you so much for calling in with these thoughts on dating. I'm going to tell you something. First of all, you are absolutely right. I've never been on a ski trip, and that is not where I met my husband, as you are aware. I met him on OKCupid. But I feel like ski trip money is more than the money it takes to subscribe to Bumble. So you have got a very excellent point there. That is such a very important thing to bring up - the cost of dating.
First of all, I mean, as you mentioned, it's expensive to go outside in general. But also, it's expensive to go outside to do the types of activities that people commonly associate with dating. I mean, me, myself personally, I have never been on a first dinner date. I just don't see myself sitting down for 90 minutes plus with somebody who - I don't even know if we're really going to hit it off like that. Everyone is different, but that's just me.
Even things that - you know, I hate to say it like this - but even things, activities in my day that were considered to be perfectly fine first date activities - coffee, ice cream are constantly being decried on social media as, like, low-effort activities. So, I mean, I really don't know what to do about all of that. It seems really difficult to figure out how to even have a proper budget for something like dating, which is unfortunate because dating is something that should be fun and not adding stress to your life or your wallet.
Now, you said you wanted to know more about how I met my husband on OKCupid. The short of the long is that, honestly, after just a couple days of back-and-forth messaging, we met up for a beer, and then that turned into dinner, and that turned into more drinks. So now that I think about it, maybe we did spend actually quite a bit of money on our very first date that neither one of us had, but - you know, the sacrifices we make for love. But anyway, Andrea, thank you so much for calling. And good luck out there.
If you want to be heard in an upcoming Hey Brittany, I have got a question for you. What historical figure do you think deserves to have a comedy made about their life? It could be a musical comedy, could be a movie comedy, could be a comedic TV show. I want to hear from you. How would you do it? I cannot wait to hear what you all have to say. Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. That's [email protected]. This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
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LUSE: This episode was edited by...
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LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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