BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LUSE: In this show, you have an amazing wig. It's a center part kind of slicked down...
COLE ESCOLA: Slicked.
LUSE: ...But half up. In the back, it's half up, half...
ESCOLA: Oh, yeah...
LUSE: ...Down.
ESCOLA: ...There's a big bun on top of the head.
LUSE: Right. And then just barrel curls everywhere, kind of shoulder-length deep.
ESCOLA: A ring of the stupidest, brattiest barrel curls that you can imagine. It's sort of like a visual snake rattle. There's a sort of angry petulance to the way the curls move.
LUSE: That is Cole Escola, star and creator of "Oh, Mary!" an upcoming Broadway play about the first lady Mary Todd Lincoln, wife of President Abraham Lincoln. But in this play, Mary is reimagined as a raging alcoholic with cabaret dreams, and Lincoln is an evil closeted gay man. Yeah. The New York Times called it gleefully tasteless, and I call it one of the funniest theater shows I've ever seen because when I saw "Oh, Mary!" in its pre-Broadway run, I could not stop laughing.
"Oh, Mary!" is full of downright silly humor from beginning to end. Like, there's this amazing bit where Lincoln keeps talking about the Civil War and trouble in the South. And Mary keeps asking, the south of where? And the jokes-per-minute ratio in this show is so high. It feels like there's a new punch line every eight seconds. There's incredible one-liners, dirty jokes that had me in stitches and some straight-up slapstick.
Do you have a favorite joke in the show?
ESCOLA: When Mary's skirt comes up and she's wearing bloomers with hearts on them, which is just a stupid "Loony Tunes" sight gag.
LUSE: This show has been generating a lot of buzz, but I personally am not that surprised. Cole was a scene stealer in the show "Search Party" on Max and has been a writer for some of my other favorite comedy shows, like "The Other Two" and "Hacks." So it was really a treat to see them star in a full-length play they'd written. So, in anticipation of this laugh-out-loud Broadway debut, I spoke with Cole about "Oh, Mary!'s" historical hijinks and the freedom in playing a hatable character.
Cole, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
ESCOLA: Thanks for having me.
LUSE: Absolutely, my pleasure. So to talk more about first ladies, you said in an interview with Paper that you were obsessed with first ladies as a child.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: Why were you obsessed with them?
ESCOLA: Obsessed with the stupid title. It means nothing. What does that mean, first lady?
LUSE: Wife of.
ESCOLA: Yeah, exactly. In the same family of, like, what makes me laugh about commercials marketed to mothers, like Swiffer WetJet, it's just sort of, like, a faux soothing feminine straitjacket. Historically, the first lady was always, like, she picks out the China and she hosts a luncheon for hungry children. And that's so stupid and also enraging, too. And it's such a weird nonrole role.
LUSE: And so you created this character who's a leading role...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...But also...
ESCOLA: She's trapped in this role that she's wrong for.
LUSE: Very wrong for...
ESCOLA: Very wrong for.
LUSE: ...In a beautiful way...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...But very wrong for it.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: I mean, I know this idea, "Oh, Mary!" - you creating this character out of Mary Todd Lincoln, it started because of an email that you sent yourself...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...In 2009.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: So you committed to the bit. But I want to know more about why you envision Mary as this alcoholic, wannabe cabaret singer and Lincoln as this, like, evil gay schemer, who is, like, trying to kind of, like, ruin Mary's life and...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Happiness.
ESCOLA: Well, he's just concerned with appearances. His reputation is at stake because he's a president during the war, and so everyone is really angry with him. So he was really not very popular. And, you know, like, the gay rumors about Lincoln - I thought this very, like, frustrated, closeted man - that was interesting to me. And then Mary is just me. It's all based on me and my feelings. And all of my characters are some aspect of me that I'm ashamed of or curious about.
LUSE: Did you retrofit Mary to suit you and an aspect of your personality, or was there something about Mary because she was, like, Abraham Lincoln's wife? Like, what about Mary specifically made you be like, ah, yes?
ESCOLA: At first, it was just, like, I could project myself onto this woman that I knew nothing about. Eventually, I learned, you know, that she would go on shopping sprees and the country...
LUSE: For real?
ESCOLA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She would come to New York and go on these, like, insane shopping sprees, and the country was mad at her for this.
LUSE: 'Cause they were in the middle of, like, a war.
ESCOLA: They were in the middle of a war. I read about that or heard about that. And I was like, what was she supposed to do? Like, I, in a funny way, related to, like, so she's trapped at home. She can't do anything. She's like, well, I want to go to New York and go shopping. And then the fact that everyone was so annoyed with her was something that I related to and my own experience growing up with dreams that people said were not really realistic and probably wouldn't happen for me.
And my own experience as an actor, like, only being able to audition for certain kinds of roles - and, I mean, I'm speaking so seriously about it, and it's funny that, like, someone might hear this interview and then come see the show, and I'm - it's just, like, potty humor, just, like, poop and puke and sex and yeah. That feeling of everyone around me hates me, I'm being annoying, I'm too much, especially, like, you know, being too much, being queer - I'll let the audience connect the dots there.
LUSE: What's interesting about that, though, too, is that your interpretation of Mary is not somebody who seems like their first priority...
ESCOLA: Is how they're coming across.
LUSE: No, not...
ESCOLA: Yeah...
LUSE: ...At all.
ESCOLA: ...That's why it's so freeing.
LUSE: (Laughter) Mary seems completely unconcerned with how she comes off.
ESCOLA: Yeah, yeah.
LUSE: But I do think that there is something deeper with what you've just said that feels very connected to something else I read in a different interview of yours where you described the character of Mary as you've played her to be something of, like, a Miss Piggy character (laughter).
ESCOLA: Yeah. Yeah.
LUSE: It's almost like there's, like, these two parallel realities...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Of, like, the way she sees herself, and then also, like, the other parallel reality, which is the way that I think that we, as the audience...
ESCOLA: See her.
LUSE: ...Are supposed to see her...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Which is as a joke.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: And that feels very connected to what you just said about feeling perhaps, like, pigeonholed, like...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...People only want to see you a certain way.
ESCOLA: Yeah. You know, Mary and Miss Piggy both want to be taken seriously, and no one will even look at them the way they want to be looked at.
LUSE: I want to return to Lincoln. Lincoln is the president that is so storied because he, quote-unquote, "freed the slaves." Obviously, it's a lot more complicated...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Than that...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...'Cause we have Juneteenth for a reason.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: But, you know, and he was assassinated in this very grand, dramatic fashion. There's so much about his legacy and his persona out there, and he's so venerated and almost untouchable to a certain degree...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...I think, as a public figure.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: And you made him such a freaky little snake (laughter).
ESCOLA: Yeah. Yeah, I just didn't go into it, like, trying to undermine Abe's reputation. I really, like, started it from Mary and was like, OK, what would be a good obstacle? Well, obviously, there's her husband who's, like, probably not thrilled about her behavior and what she wants. And then I'd have to answer, like, well, why does he not let her do the things she wants? I wanted to have the same third-grade knowledge of Abraham Lincoln as the audience probably has coming in so that, like, there was no joke that was based on something that was too...
LUSE: Niche.
ESCOLA: ...Niche. Yeah.
LUSE: That's actually really thoughtful. Obviously, so much of the play is taking everything from potshots to elaborately set-up jokes at the expense of a president. I spoke to someone named Sarah Jae Leiber. She is, like, a person who writes and researches a lot about theater. And she has this idea of, like, the audience wanting to feel empowered in some way.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: They don't have power in the face of a president.
ESCOLA: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe that's hopefully why they want to root for Mary. But I also wrote it knowing that, like, Mary is annoying. I also am aware of and want and am excited by the thought of people being like, I actually hate her. I can't stand her. Like, yeah, Abe's right, she should, like, shut up and go away. And it's freeing, too, to go on stage and not be like, well, I hope they're on my character's side. I don't know. It's just very freeing, as someone who's so worried about what people think of me, to play someone that it wouldn't occur to them.
LUSE: Thinking about likeability and wanting to be liked and needing to be liked, even if you don't want to be, like, the need - feeling like you need to fulfill this need to be liked - that's something that so many women deal...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...With.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: It makes me think about your performance background before "Oh, Mary!" You started out doing performance art as older women characters. What is it about older women that calls to you?
ESCOLA: It's never something that I sat down and made the choice to do. I just sort of follow what tickles me or what makes me feel something. And as a kid, I was raised a lot by my grandmother and adored her, wanted to emulate her. She would have lunch with her friends on Mondays. And so, all of third grade, I faked sick every Monday so that I could have lunch with my grandma and her friends, Ruby and Shirley and Grace. Those were the people that I loved and loved me growing up.
I'm sure it has a lot to do with, like, femininity as well. Like, I've always been very femme. And the way femininity is allowed or, like, forced on people is both funny and sad and interesting to me. And especially with older women, it's like, OK, now you're allowed this brand of femininity, and it's doilies and warm comforting stew and rice pudding and yeah.
LUSE: In many ways, as women age, like you said, the sort of femininity that...
ESCOLA: The package...
LUSE: ...You have.
ESCOLA: ...That they're allowed to, like...
LUSE: The package...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Diminishes...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...That you're - the package of feminity that you're allowed to access...
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: ...It diminishes in many ways. But then I could see how there's also similarly, like, in many of, like, the older woman characters that you've played, that there is that similarly freeing aspect of, like, you know, but I also care less what you think.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: And so we'll just see what comes out of that.
ESCOLA: Yeah.
LUSE: There's something kind of freeing about that.
ESCOLA: Yeah. Also, like, I loved my grandmother's stories. She had Alzheimer's. But there was a while when it was early on where she would just tell me the same stories over and over again. And I loved it. It was sad, obviously, because, as a child, I didn't fully understand why she was repeating, but I also then felt a responsibility not to embarrass her by pretending it was my first time listening to her stories. And, I don't know, just the way she's - like, females are allowed to feel and talk about their feelings. And that was always, like, so interesting to me.
LUSE: You know, you've had other roles where your character's gender is kind of fluid. I think about your character - characters, but you have played one character who was moving through so many different states in "Search Party," which is...
ESCOLA: Oh, thanks.
LUSE: ...A phenomenal show, for those of you who haven't seen it. But a lot of your roles do include some version of an evil lady.
ESCOLA: Yeah. Yeah.
LUSE: I wonder, what about this gender play with, like, truly heinous but funny women characters - what about that speaks to you artistically?
ESCOLA: I think, again, it comes down to femininity and, like, who's allowed to own their femininity and who's not. Like, for example, "The Little Mermaid" - Ariel is sort of accidentally feminine. Like, she isn't aware of, like, her femaleness and her girlishness. She's just, like, swimming around and I want to be in love, whereas, like, Ursula owns her femininity, and she's putting on lipstick, and she's, like, transforming herself into Vanessa...
LUSE: Body...
ESCOLA: ...And, like, her...
LUSE: ...Language.
ESCOLA: ...Body language - and, like, for some reason, a woman owning her femininity is evil. Like, women are only supposed to be accidentally feminine. Like, it's just supposed to be like, oh, oops, I'm wearing a dress. It's not supposed to be like, I'm wearing a dress, and I feel sexy in this dress. That's evil. And so, as a little queer kid, wanting to be feminine, I was drawn to people that owned their femininity, and that's typically villainous women. I think - I don't know. That's pop psychology armchair.
LUSE: (Laughter) Cole, thank you so much. This was...
ESCOLA: Thank you so much...
LUSE: ...A blast.
ESCOLA: Thanks for having me.
LUSE: Thanks again to Cole Escola. Previews for "Oh, Mary!" on Broadway start on June 26.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Hey, Brittany.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Hey, Brittany.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Hey, Brittany.
LUSE: OK, so last week for Hey, Brittany, we asked you all to tell us about a historical figure you think deserves the comic treatment, and we got some really interesting responses. Let's get into them.
OGECHI: Hey, Brittany. It's Ogechi (ph), and I'm from California. And a historical figure I would love to see a comedy on is Cleopatra, just because of her whole embodiment of just that time period and also her style. It would be very interesting to see in a comedy.
LUSE: Ogechi, thank you so much for calling in. Interesting, interesting choice - Cleopatra for a comedy. Let's just say for the gowns alone, I think it could be worth it.
OZIE: Hey, Brittany, my name is Ozie (ph), and a historical figure I would like to see a comedy about is William Shakespeare 'cause some of his plays are very controversial, so I would love to see, you know, his thoughts.
LUSE: OK, now, this is a really interesting suggestion. I mean, I think when people think about a comedy about William Shakespeare, I feel like people think about "Shakespeare In Love," which I believe Gwyneth Paltrow won an Oscar for that one. But I felt like they were trying to do more of, like, a romantic romance comedy-ish type of thing with that. But I feel like a straight-up comedy kind of delving into the things that Shakespeare was commenting on and the way he was commenting on it - I mean, he was kind of The Shade Room of his time, if you think about it. Great choice.
JAMILLA: Hey, Brittany. This is Jamilla (ph). A historical figure that I'd like to see a comedy about is el-Hajj Malik Shabazz, or Malcolm X. I think a lot of times we see him in a very serious political light, and I would love to see some of the joy that he experienced in his life through comedy, if that's possible. So, yeah, let's make it happen.
LUSE: Jamilla, now, this is a daring suggestion. I'll say this - I don't think I could do it. I don't think I could carry it off, and I imagine that there are very few people who could. But I do think that somebody as beloved, as shape-shifting, as thoughtful and as charismatic of a leader as he was would have to be a person who was able to find the humor in a lot of different situations. I even just think about photos of him, one in particular, laughing garrulously with Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali - now, you want to talk about a quick wit, a fast talker, somebody who was able to turn a little joke around real quick - that's him. I could see the two of them going back and forth, perhaps, trading in the dozens. I think that could be kind of interesting now that you mention it. (Vocalizing), Malcolm X. (Vocalizing).
Thank you so much to all of you who submitted your suggestions for your idea for a historical comedy. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether we will actually see any of these, but it is really fun to think about. Now, if you want to be heard on an upcoming Hey, Brittany, I have a topic that I know some of you out there could help me with. But to give you just a little bit of background info, next week we have author and writer Carvell Wallace on the show to talk about his new book "Another Word For Love." And one of the themes in this book is recovery.
So, on that thought, I'd love to hear from some of you, what is the most beautiful thing that recovery has taught you? This could be recovery from addiction, recovery from a difficult time in your life, recovery from an injury or illness. But I want to know. What is the most beautiful thing that recovery has taught you? Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. That's [email protected].
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LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
ALEXIS WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Alexis Williams.
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Engineering support came from...
ROBERT RODRIGUEZ, BYLINE: Robert Rodriguez.
CARLEIGH STRANGE, BYLINE: Carleigh Strange.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
VERALYN WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Veralyn Williams.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right, that's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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