BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR - a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: A heads-up - this conversation touches on sex and sexuality.
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LUSE: As a culture, we've run love into the ground. There are countless movies about finding and fighting for love, music about the joy and pain of being in love, and a slew of dating apps that promise to help you find love. But when we use the word love, what do we actually mean? My next guest, writer Carvell Wallace, explores that concept in his new book, titled "Another Word For Love."
CARVELL WALLACE: The book is concerned with the itemizing of the various things that comprise love.
LUSE: That's so interesting. It's like you're creating your own taxonomy around it.
WALLACE: Mmm hmm. Taxonomy - that's the word I've been looking for in all these interviews.
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LUSE: I'm here to help. I'm here to help.
You might know Carvell for his insightful profiles of celebrities like Viola Davis and Steph Curry. But this time, he's digging into his own life with a memoir. Carvell begins the book by reflecting on a childhood colored by instability. As a kid, he bounced between different family members, experienced bouts of homelessness and dealt with abuse and bullying. Later, we see grown-up Carvell try to make sense of his upbringing and the anxieties and addictions that grew from it. But the book is incredibly hopeful. We also get to bear witness to his embrace of recovery - of family and of love and all its definitions. Today, we're talking to Carvell about new ways to look at life. And stick around, because this conversation really changed how I think about reshaping a life after trauma.
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LUSE: Carvell, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
WALLACE: Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
LUSE: Oh, it's our pleasure. You wrote a beautiful book.
WALLACE: Oh, thank you.
LUSE: I want to start off by asking about something in the book that I just learned about it, and I just loved it, where a friend of yours describes a phenomenon she calls found wallet syndrome.
WALLACE: Oh, yeah.
LUSE: What is found wallet syndrome? And what's something that's recently given it to you?
WALLACE: Right. Found wallet syndrome is the worldview that is similar to the one you have when you find a wallet with a bunch of money in it (laughter) - assuming that, like, you can't get it back to the person or whatever - in the sense of that you now feel like something has been gifted to you. You're like, oh, things are working out. What a good day. It's really more of, like, a creative way of saying gratitude.
LUSE: Yeah.
WALLACE: And so for me, I have that all the time. Like, it happens a lot when I go to bed at night because I crawl into a bed and I'm like, wow, this is low-key kind of crazy. Like, I have a bed. You can take that for granted, but you can also view that as a form of something to be grateful for. And that point of view changes the way you engage with life and with other people.
LUSE: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, when you think about it like that, the most mundane daily thing has the opportunity to become miraculous.
WALLACE: The most mundane daily thing.
LUSE: I love that. It makes you think one of the themes that, to me, really framed this book was just like the theme of recovery and the slow, purposeful mundane, but also like herculean change that it can require. You write about recovering from alcoholism and substance abuse, but also recovering from a difficult childhood. And I wonder, how do you see recovery and found wallet syndrome as related?
WALLACE: Well, I do think that a lot of coming to a place of peace does have a lot to do with changing perspective. Part of what happens in the book is that, you know, the main character, who happens to be me, gets to change the perspective that was maybe given to me - I do matter. I am not alone. People are not to be feared 100% of the time.
So that changing of perspective is what allows us to be able to function in a better way in the world with one another. And that's important to me 'cause it feels like a political thing. And for me, one of the most important sort of ideas in the book is that it's not enough to be hurt and recognize it, like love also requires of us to heal. For a while, you can just be like, I hurt. People are terrible. The world sucks. That's my story. Thanks for coming. And it was really important to me that the book wasn't that. That's why the part that details the trauma is only the first third of the book.
LUSE: Right.
WALLACE: The remaining two-thirds of the book is about the slow and sort of mundane sometimes and sometimes miraculous, changes in that perspective that have defined my life.
LUSE: But it's so interesting, I think, that one of the big experiences that for many people can also result in a huge change in perspective is parenting. You write about parenthood with a rare joy that was barely contained by the page.
WALLACE: (Laughter).
LUSE: You know, remembering trips to the beach, winding text conversations, you know, choking back teargas while protesting together in the summer of '22...
WALLACE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
LUSE: ...With your two kids. And it's clear that you love your children. But you also seem to admire them. I wonder, how does the joy you feel with your children make you reflect on your own childhood?
WALLACE: Yeah, that's a great question. It probably does two things. It helps me understand that it's possible that there were people in my life who felt the same way looking at me and holding me that I feel holding my children or looking at them or engaging with them. That helps to dismantle the core belief that I have that, like, you're worthless. No one wants you. You know, you suck. But on the flip side, it also makes me consider in a deeper way why I didn't feel that way growing up. If a parent says, I loved you so much, but you don't remember feeling loved by them...
LUSE: Right.
WALLACE: ...That's not - it doesn't mean they didn't love you. But it does matter that you don't remember that because one of the points of loving someone is to help them feel loved. That's actually, I think, might be one of the biggest points of it.
LUSE: That is really powerful. That reminds me of something else in the book that I really want to talk about. I was particularly moved by your evolving relationship with your ex-wife, the mother of your children. And there's one scene in particular after you've separated. You're both in early recovery. And the two of you have a lengthy conversation detailing the ways in which you harmed each other, you know, despite your best efforts not to.
And now, I mean, at least closer to the present in the book, you seem to share this, like, deep and knowing bond, like, a serious understanding outside the confines of your marriage. And that's not something that many people succeed at, even when they really, really want to. What is the lesson that you had to learn in order to support such a huge change in the way that you love someone?
WALLACE: Well, I think there were a few elements involved. No. 1 is, I think we had a very genuine love for one another at the beginning. And I think then we were unable to act on that love in, like, the best ways because of our own shortcomings, traumas, addictions, what have you. And then once we sort of, like, ran the marriage into the ground with that kind of stuff, then we knew that this love that we have for each other and this desire to be careful and caring with one another was there. And so the work that we were doing afterwards was to make it more possible to access that.
Also, the other thing I learned is that at a certain point, all of my problems that I have with her should be talked about with someone else that isn't her, for the most part. Whereas when we were super involved in the relationship, our first move was to then go to the other person and be like, you made me feel this way. You, blah, blah, blah. And on top of that, blah blah, blah. And you're still trying to work it out with them. So now we begin from the beginning, which is that yes, something you said was triggering to me, but I don't need to go back and fight with you about it. I can go talk to someone else about it, process it with someone else. Either you don't say anything about it because now you're over it...
LUSE: (Laughter).
WALLACE: Or you realize, OK, this is something I maybe need to talk about. But you can talk about it in a much more kind of sane and helpful way that isn't just reactive.
LUSE: That's so interesting 'cause a lot of the mechanisms involved in that are similar to how it can be helpful to conduct yourself with a friend or a family member.
WALLACE: Yeah.
LUSE: But I think sometimes with romance, people think that there has to be sort of, like, different rules applied to that kind of a situation.
WALLACE: Yeah.
LUSE: It sounds like you have developed a lot of flexibility around what a relationship can be and how it can look.
WALLACE: Yeah.
LUSE: And I feel like you were able to develop that muscle from embracing your queerness. And you've described that as a whole-making experience that has brought so much beauty to just about every area of your life, in how you build community, in how you share yourself with others and how you feel about your body, but especially in the way that you care for yourself. Can you talk more about that process?
WALLACE: I mean, I could really go off in any direction in that regard. The first one that comes to mind is that queerness helps me think about relationships in all these complicated - not complicated but fluid ways. Because I think that inside heteronormativity is a kind of, like, orthodoxy around relationships and the relationship escalator. And you and one other person get together, and you decide we're the man and we're the woman. And we're going to, like, do all the stuff that you're supposed to do, as in first comes love, then comes marriage, then comes so and so with the baby carriage.
Like, the idea that that's exactly what it is and anything outside of that doesn't count - I feel like queerness allows us to have relationships that are all over the place. I remember some comedian said that straightness is like that first base, second base, third base. Queerness is like a bunch of people running around in the field crashing into each other.
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WALLACE: And that has been my experience. And sometimes that's painful, but more often than not it's really exciting. And it's like every relationship gets to live on its own terms. But it's driven by the fact that we're, like, truly trying to relate to each other as human beings and care for one another because being queer is so hard that we have to care for one another.
LUSE: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. That through line of care also shows up in the way that you write about sex in the book. And touching back on the theme of recovery and healing, there is a quote from the book that I have been dying to ask you about since I read it. I'm going to read it to you.
WALLACE: OK (laughter).
LUSE: You wrote...
(Reading) Sex is weird and disgusting and ridiculous, and quite often abused and weaponized and traumatic, but I still like it. I like what it can be and, sometimes, what it is. Sometimes I think it might hold the secrets to almost everything. If we can learn how to treat it with care, we may be able to heal every part of us that needs healing.
Talk to me about what inspired that passage.
WALLACE: Well, because sex is a site of so much hurt, political and personal and spiritual hurt, it can also be the site of political, personal and spiritual recovery. To have sexual intimacy under circumstances of authenticity and caring and honesty and true connection can actually, like, really change the way your whole system operates. And that's, I think, what I was saying there - that it can. I'm not saying it does. I'm not here to be like, everyone join my sex cult. We're all going to have sex and be liberated.
LUSE: (Laughter) I don't know. So much of the violence we experience as humans is inflicted upon us in relationship with others, and very often, sex is communing with other people. And abuse is a relational crime.
WALLACE: Yes.
LUSE: And I don't mean crime in, like, the legal sense.
WALLACE: Yeah, yeah.
LUSE: I mean in, like, the human sense.
WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah.
LUSE: If abuse is a relational crime, perhaps good sex is a form of relational cure.
WALLACE: Yes. I think that's what I'm getting at, perhaps. And, again, I want to be - I think the reason I'm so anxious to be like, perhaps, maybe, possibly, let's - is because I know that people have used that argument, the very argument I'm making, as a way into sexual abuse. So I'm not here to recommend anything to anyone. You know, I'm just sharing, like, what I think is a possibility.
LUSE: We talked a lot about, like, resilience, even if we haven't used that word. We talked a lot about resilience and also how resilience requires you to sometimes pull out and see the bigger picture and how you fit into it. I think that also inherent in doing that is recognizing just how human - kind of recognizing your own humanity. You're just one...
WALLACE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
LUSE: ...Person out of so many, but...
WALLACE: Yeah.
LUSE: ...And also just, like, so fallible...
WALLACE: Yeah.
LUSE: ...And specifically so fragile. One of the things that recovery does, I think, is confront us with our own fragility, which reminds me of a beautiful passage from one of the later chapters in the book. And I'd love to have you read it.
WALLACE: Totally.
(Reading) And I think about the winds that rattle the foundations of the house I'm sitting in, reminding me that a mere breath from the Earth can send me and all of us rocketing into eternity. It makes me think of how fragile we are, which is good news. This means that everything we've created can crumble - the police, the governments, the tanks and rockets, the systems, the hierarchies, the castles made upon sand, violence, the murders in bedrooms, and schoolrooms, on playgrounds, in grocery stores and deserts and alleyways and homes and offices. All of it can crumble. All of it can be reborn. It must. We must. This is another way of saying love.
LUSE: I love that. And thank you for reading it. I loved what you had to say there about being reminded of one's own fragility is a good thing. I wonder, what would it look like for more of us to see the fragility of our world and ourselves as a good thing?
WALLACE: This is about perspective shift again. That's what this part of the book is about. It's about probably the biggest perspective shift that one can have, which is changing the way that you think about our fragility. And seeing it as a, quote-unquote - I don't know if good thing is the right word, but coming to acceptance of it - like, a genuine acceptance that isn't driven by fear. Earlier in the book, I talk about the kind of, like, classic nihlist moment every sort of, like, high school philosopher has when you realize that nothing matters - you know, your existentialist moment where you go, oh, my God, like, no one cares - and that when you're in high school, your next thought is that no one cares, and therefore, nothing matters.
LUSE: Right.
WALLACE: But then as an adult, that revelation for me was like, oh, since the universe doesn't truly care what we do, literally, we are all we have to care for each other. We're all we have. That's it. In the absence of fear about my own fragility is the space of love and care for you. Now, I may come up short in it or not do it in the way that you want. OK, fine. But that's what we have. So that's what we're going to try and do here.
LUSE: You have given me so much to think about today. This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with me. I really enjoyed this.
WALLACE: Thanks for having me.
LUSE: That was writer Carvell Wallace. His new book, "Another Word For Love," is out now.
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LUSE: All right. Last week, I asked what lessons you all learned on the path to recovery - any kind of recovery. And oh, my gosh, did we get some good responses.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Hey, Brittany.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Hey, Brittany.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Hey, Brittany.
JODI-ANN: Hey, Brittany. It's Jodi-Ann (ph). After recovering from surgery, it took some time to relearn how to walk and do things for myself. And what recovery taught me was that I don't have to be useful to deserve love and to be in community with other people. But I can still spend time and accept help and be a good friend, be a good sibling, even if I couldn't really do much for myself. And I think also, with that, it taught me that it's OK to ask for help. And being helped is also a way of being in community with other people.
JESSICA: Hey, Brittany. One of the most beautiful things recovery has taught me is how to advocate for myself and ask for what I need. When I was in early sobriety - like, three weeks sober - I was at an early morning AA meeting, and I asked for advice on attending a friend's upcoming wedding where there was going to be an open bar. After the meeting, one of the women came up to me and praised me for being brave enough to speak up 'cause a lot of people in early sobriety don't. Then she said, closed mouths don't get fed. So that was a really good reminder to me that it was going to be up to me to ask for what I needed in sobriety - so things like asking my friends not to drink around me for the first six months I was sober. Learning to advocate for myself really paid off. And July 15, I will celebrate nine years of sobriety.
BRANDON: Hey, Brittany. My name is Brandon (ph) - they/them pronouns - and I live in Dallas. So unfortunately, in February, I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure. And one thing I learned in my recovery is capacity and my relationship to it, whether it is my physical capacity - like, I am tired, and this is all my body has - my mental capacity around stress and anxiety and depression and even extending myself grace for having to take a nap because I need to, you know, calm down or I need to rest. So my recovery journey is still going, but I am healed in a way beyond just physically but also mentally as well because of, again, the grace that I had to extend to myself and acknowledging my capacity.
LUSE: Oh, my gosh. Jodi-Ann, Jessica, Brandon - I can't thank you all enough for calling in. These were beautiful stories, and I'm so grateful that you shared them with us. Brandon, I am so sorry to hear about your diagnosis. You will be on my mind. And I appreciate you using the energy that you do have to call in and talk to us. And Jessica, congrats on the achievement. It is a big milestone.
And Jodi - fun fact, y'all - Jodi is one of my dearest friends since I was, like, 19 years old. So this was a really wonderful surprise. Y'all had some really sage advice.
As for me, my lesson in recovery comes from a time when I had a traumatic brain injury. I had a concussion back in 2020. There's a long story. I slipped, hit my head on some stairs. It was a whole drama. But as a result, I had a concussion. I couldn't really use screens. I also had some mild amnesia. And also, one of the lesser-known side effects of concussions is actually depression. And so I was, like, depressed.
But in addition to rest, which is something I think a lot of us know about recovery, something that actually got me feeling better in a way that I never expected was play. Because I couldn't really look at my phone, I started doing crossword puzzles - something that I grew up watching my mom do every week, but I don't think I actually had ever completed a crossword puzzle in my adult life. They were a really great way for me to kind of, like, play while still using my brain in a gentle way that actually really ended up aiding in my recovery.
I think that when we are approaching something difficult like recovery, we're thinking about trying to take things a day at a time or getting into physical therapy, thinking about all these huge changes that we'll have to make to our life that take away pleasure. But for me, something that was really helpful was finding a way to continue to play.
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LUSE: Now, if you want to be heard on an upcoming Hey, Brittany, I have a question for you. I already asked y'all about the song of the summer. But next week, we have trombonist and professor Myles Blakemore on the show. And my conversation with him got me thinking - what song belongs in the history books? Like, its impact needs to be taught in schools for years to come. I know my answer, but what about you? Send us a voice memo at [email protected]. That's [email protected].
This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
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LUSE: This episode was edited by...
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LUSE: Engineering support came from...
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LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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