< The truth and lies behind one of the most banned books in America

B A PARKER, HOST:

Heads-up - this episode contains adult themes.

Hey, everyone. You're listening to CODE SWITCH. I'm B.A. Parker.

GENE DEMBY, HOST:

And I'm Gene Demby.

PARKER: So Gene, it seems like every few weeks, we hear mutterings of a new book ban, whether it's Iowa school districts trying to remove over 3,000 books from its schools or the governor of Utah signing a bill making it easier to ban books like "The Bluest Eye" from Toni Morrison or Judy Blume's "Forever." Like, who bans Judy Blume?

DEMBY: Right. Is this, like, never-ending game of Whac-A-Mole between the censors and the people being censored. I mean, a Florida school district literally just banned a book called "Ban This Book" because they didn't like the way this children's book talked about book bans.

PARKER: I - to steal your word, it's bananas. So CODE SWITCH is starting a new monthly series where we deep dive into the many facets of the book bans here in the states.

DEMBY: We'll be get into all these ongoing battles over these books, the statewide implications of these bans and the kids who are fighting back.

PARKER: Exactly. So a little bit later, we're going to hear from the author of one of the most banned books in the United States. But first, we're getting into what makes a book ban a book ban in the first place.

So to start off the series on banned books, I wanted to check in with one of NPR's reporters who's been covering this, Elizabeth Blair.

ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: My name is Elizabeth Blair, and I am a cultural correspondent in the NPR arts/culture hub.

PARKER: Hi, Elizabeth.

BLAIR: Hi, Parker.

PARKER: So you did a piece recently about the book bans for NPR, and I think a lot of people can see this book banning discussion as, like, a black-and-white issue, that people are either pro banning explicit books or against any kind of censorship. Is there any nuance to this debate?

BLAIR: I mean, some of the books that are challenged are books that have been challenged for years - "To Kill A Mockingbird, "for example. But there are a growing number of books that are related to race, gender and sexuality that are being challenged these days, and I think some of it is really parents trying to look out for their kids and what they're exposed to, and some of it is political.

PARKER: Yeah.

BLAIR: You know, nobody wants to be called somebody who wants to ban books. So the people who are, you know, coming to their school boards and saying, this particular text is inappropriate; for whatever reason, I want it removed, they take issue with the term book ban. I interviewed a gentleman in Carroll County, Md., and he called the term a dog whistle.

JOE TIER: A ban is no access to material whatsoever. My name is Joe Tier, and I am a concerned grandparent and parent. I think it's designed to obfuscate the constructive dialogue that should occur about age-appropriate content. It can be a dog whistle that's used to incite anger against those who are opposed to limiting sexually explicit content in public school libraries.

BLAIR: But, you know, I do think that there can be nuance. I know that librarians are very worried because if a book that's been challenged or removed is found on the shelves...

PARKER: Yeah?

BLAIR: ...They could face consequences. They could be fined. In some cases, I think they could be fired. This woman I interviewed, Mona Kerby, is the head of the master's program in school librarianship at McDaniel College in Westminster, Md.

MONA KERBY: To me, banned is the book's not on the shelf, but I could certainly see the different flavors of that word. And that's why a discussion about ideas is always so enriching.

BLAIR: And she talked about how, in her day, she didn't have as many challenges as that we're seeing now, but sometimes those challenges became great opportunities to talk about ideas and to see both sides and for people to kind of find the common ground. And she's not seeing very much of that now because I think some of these school librarians are just being inundated with challenges.

PARKER: Yeah.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

PARKER: We've all seen the headlines over the last few years about book bans around the country. But can you set the scene for us? Like, how widespread is this? Like, what is the process for how a book actually gets banned?

BLAIR: So when we talk about what's the scene, the American Library Association says that the number of book bans has skyrocketed. That's up 65% from 2022. But there's a question of how many people are doing the challenging of books. The Washington Post did a study looking at the year 2021 to 2022, and it turned out that just 11 people were responsible for filing 60% of the book challenges. So that is not a majority of Americans. There are more people challenging books now, and it's more of a concerted effort now, led by groups like Moms for Liberty. I do think that the term book ban is really provocative...

PARKER: Yeah.

BLAIR: ...And gets people, you know, riled up.

PARKER: Yeah.

BLAIR: But, you know, I did do a story where the first line of the piece is nothing says read me like banned book.

PARKER: Ooh (ph).

BLAIR: Yeah - because, I mean, we're all interested, right? If this is the thing that - people seem so upset about it, it really sparks your curiosity.

PARKER: That's so cynical, Elizabeth.

BLAIR: But it may be in a good way. I mean, as someone else put it to me, anything that gets people reading is fine with me.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

PARKER: That's fair. And I'm just going to spend the whole summer reading banned books.

BLAIR: And there are some very good ones on the list (laughter).

PARKER: There are.

BLAIR: Yeah.

PARKER: Elizabeth Blair, thank you so much.

BLAIR: Thank you.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

DEMBY: So Parker, you talked with the author of one of the most banned books.

PARKER: Yeah, that's right. I spoke with Mike Curato, author of "Flamer." It's a book about a teenage boy named Aiden, and it takes place one summer while Aiden is at sleepaway camp. Now, over the course of the book, Aiden learns a lot about himself while he's coping with bullying he's experiencing for his body, for being a biracial Filipino kid and for his queerness. And a lot of what Aiden goes through in the book is inspired by the author's own experiences as someone who shares a lot of Aiden's identities.

Are you standing during this interview?

MIKE CURATO: I'm standing. I'm a standing queen now. Like, sitting was...

PARKER: You're a better person than me.

CURATO: ...Really effing up my back. So I stand at my desk now. Yeah. My name is Mike Curato. I'm an author and illustrator.

PARKER: I remember I've read something that said, Mike Curato understands teenage boys the same way Judy Blume understands teenage girls.

CURATO: I mean...

PARKER: What does that feel like? That's a lot of power.

CURATO: Yeah. That is one of the highest accolades I've ever been paid.

PARKER: (Laughter).

CURATO: And, you know, that wasn't necessarily my goal, but I was like, OK, I can still feel what it felt like to be 14. I can still go back in time in my mind. And I viscerally (laughter) experience the anxiety, the drama, the fear of what lay ahead of me. I'm 43 now, but I still carry that 14-year-old inside me, right? And I have done a lot of work - a lot of therapy - to take care of that 14-year-old and to tell him, it's going to be all right.

And the whole point in making "Flamer" was to tell other 14-year-olds who are going through the same thing that I was going through at their age that it's going to be all right, that they deserve to be here, that they deserve to take up some space.

PARKER: While reading "Flamer," I had this terrible thought. I was like, oh, that's right. Boys have feelings.

(LAUGHTER)

PARKER: Because there's this weird, kind of, like, self-fulfilling prophecy when you have that toxic masculinity and not being able to show your emotions becomes, like, this badge of honor, people that are outside of that forget that the people who are masking those feelings do have feelings.

CURATO: Yeah. And then it's a vicious cycle - right? - because...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...These people pretending to not have feelings have really intense feelings that they're not letting out. And then when it does come out, it's in really unhealthy ways. And yeah, it just perpetuates this toxic cycle.

PARKER: Why was it important for you to write from your own perspective as a teenager?

CURATO: I think I felt so hopeless when I was young. And, you know, I wanted to give some hope to someone who is living in a hopeless situation like I was. When we're facing adversity every day, when we're facing people who are throwing hate at us...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...It's very hard to think, like, I will have - I can have a better life. And yeah, I just - I like to think of my book as a life raft. And we just - we need more of them, you know?

PARKER: Yeah, I agree. Thinking back on your teenage self, are there books with adult themes that you remember reading that left an indelible mark on you?

CURATO: Like, when I think about what I was reading in high school for class, I mean, I was getting some pretty intense titles.

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: And I didn't always fully understand, but they really, like, got me to think. I mean, I was - they were making me read, like, Cormac McCarthy. I read Toni Morrison in high school.

PARKER: Listen, we love Toni Morrison, but I...

CURATO: OK.

PARKER: She's a rough read...

CURATO: Yeah. I mean...

PARKER: ...For some.

CURATO: I remember reading "Beloved" and, like, I mean, I was shook, right? But...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...That - I would never go back in time and be like, don't let this child read "Beloved." Like, I think it was a huge moment of growth for me. I don't know. I'm kind of, like, proud of my teachers for just allowing us to be in on it. I feel like when we're growing up, there is this whole, like, sort of movement to protect a child's innocence, which is - like, I understand to a degree. But, I mean, now it's like, don't we owe it to teenagers to help them understand the world instead of just leaving them to figure everything out on their own? I mean, we see communities where, like, they have no sex education. And then...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...The teen pregnancy rates are higher because they don't understand how it works, or they don't have access to protection, or...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...You know, there are spikes in STIs because no one taught them what an STI is and how they can get it. So just as an example, it's like, wouldn't it be better to give a child information that could help protect them and help them, like, set boundaries?

PARKER: Yeah. It's nice to be a teenager and be trusted with the truth.

CURATO: Yes. I think if you're a teenager - and I know when I was a teenager and when an adult treated me like an adult - and I have an aunt who I love, and she used to say, like, you're growing up now. You're an adult now, so I'm going to tell you this. And I would be like, oh, my God, what she going to say? Like, I was ready. Like, I wanted to be that grown-up. I wanted her to see me as, like, responsible and, like, on her level. So I don't know. I think we owe our youth honesty...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...Because that's what's going to make them better people.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

PARKER: When we come back...

CURATO: I am so scared for my readers. I'm scared for the people I wrote my book for. You know, the ones that live in the communities where these books are being banned are the ones who need it most.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

PARKER: That's coming up. Stay with us.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

PARKER: Parker.

DEMBY: Gene.

PARKER: CODE SWITCH.

DEMBY: Parker has been talking to Mike Curato, the author of "Flamer," a graphic novel that has been swept up in this wave of book bans going on across country.

PARKER: And Mike has dealt with a lot of pushback from some parents averse to a story about a teenage Boy Scout coming to terms with his burgeoning sexuality, including a woman in Texas filing a criminal complaint against him.

CURATO: I was included on this McCarthy-era-like list that a Texas lawmaker introduced.

PARKER: It was a concerted effort against him and other authors like him.

CURATO: It's been really hard.

PARKER: How does it feel, the fact that, you know, this character you've created and loved is considered to some - inherently dangerous or unacceptable to certain people?

CURATO: First of all, you know, if someone actually took the time to read "Flamer," I don't think they would consider Aiden, the main character, threatening at all. I mean, here's a kid who is just trying to be a good person, and he's trying to reconcile the parts of himself that other people are telling him aren't good. So you know, when I first started hearing these stories, seeing images of, like, angry parents at school board meetings holding up my book and calling it pornography, calling it indoctrination, I mean, I felt literally sick.

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: I mean, I wrote my book, these other authors wrote their books to help people. These are books that are there to give validation to people's existence. And what these people are saying is that people like Aiden, people like me shouldn't exist. I mean, that's basically what it comes down to. When you're saying we can't share that story with children because it's not appropriate, that's all very coded language to say, that's not the type of people that we want in this world.

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: And it kind of - that action, those words just prove why books like this need to exist. I mean, those words and actions are just rooted in hatred and prejudice. And, you know, there are a lot of buzz phrases flying around like protecting the children, and it's like, you don't actually care about protecting the children because if you cared about protecting all children, you would care about children of color. You would care about queer youth. You would care about girls, women. And - sorry, I'm getting a little (laughter)...

PARKER: No, no, no. Feel your feelings.

CURATO: Yeah. No, I know. I get really riled up here, and then I get a little flustered and then lose my way. But I think the hardest part for me - and I know I've been on record saying this many times, but it bears repeating - I am so scared for my readers. I'm scared for the people I wrote my book for. You know, the ones that live in the communities where these books are being banned are the ones who need it most.

I mean, Aiden in the book deals with suicidal ideation. He doesn't get there on his own. When we are constantly hearing about how people like us shouldn't exist, we, like, really internalize that hatred. And then how do you help someone who starts believing those lies? - like, I'm not supposed to be here. How do you connect with someone to be like, hey, yes, you do deserve to be here, and I understand because I've been where you've been?

So, you know, books like mine - they cherry-pick little scenes, little moments in this book. They take it out of context. They share it and, you know, call it pornography, call it woke propaganda. And they just sideline the bigger picture of the story - of saying, like, no, I'm just making this so that someone knows their own worth.

PARKER: You've talked about the way that queer stories are inherently sexualized. Do you feel like that's what happened here?

CURATO: Absolutely. Absolutely. "Flamer" is a book about a 14-year-old boy, OK? And I think that there's a lot of misinformation about who the audience for this book is. You know, I'm not saying, like, hey, here is this book for kindergarteners. This is a book about a teenage kid with teenage experiences. And that's life. And I know that there are parents that don't want to believe that their children have sexual feelings. But, you know, I would ask people, like, instead of thinking about your children, think about yourself at 14. Like, that's what I'm working with here, right? I'm thinking about myself at 14...

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: ...And what that meant to me and, like, how I struggled with it. Yeah. I'm just shaking my head right now because...

PARKER: What?

CURATO: ...I think something else that I want to touch on is that what has happened with my book is kind of my worst fear. I started in children's books in 2012. My first book came out in 2014. I went to school for this. It took me 10 years before I got published. And I had a lot of anxiety about being an out gay man in children's publishing because I grew up with the stigma of gay people being pedophiles. And now there are people calling me that. And it's really - you know, I'd love to say that I don't let those things get to me, but truly, I don't - I cannot think of something worse that someone could call me. And I take - I do take it very personally.

And I try to remember that, you know, that is said out of ignorance. These are people who don't know me as a person. But to take my work - to take what I've put my heart and soul - put myself into as a gift to people like me to celebrate them, to show them some love and some kindness that maybe they don't receive in their own life and to have it demeaned in such a disgusting way...

PARKER: I mean, like Aiden, you were vulnerable. And you created this, like - this vulnerable story, and some of the responses were really hostile.

CURATO: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is fiction, but it's a book about my life.

PARKER: Yeah.

CURATO: And, you know, and I - I mean, I had suicidal ideation when I was Aiden's age because I saw what it was like to be gay in America - at least - I mean, I didn't get to see the joyful parts of it - let me clarify. I got to see what was judged. I got to see people being outcast. I got to see people dying of AIDS and the government not caring. I got to see people being physically hurt. I got to see people being disowned by their families. That's all that the media gave me as a teen, and I didn't know that I could be happy.

And I don't want to see that happen again. I don't want that to happen to a teenager who's only seeing - you know, who's only seeing the world tearing us down. And it does - it feels like that right now. But I also feel like the queer community has so much love in it. And that's why we're still here, and that's why we'll always be here.

PARKER: Have you gotten any responses from people who have felt like Aiden or parents of Aidens in the world?

CURATO: Yes. Yes. It's been really moving. You know, I hear from teenagers that are like, I've never seen myself in a book before. And I hear from adults who say, I have never seen myself like this in a book before. It's wild. Like, I got messages not from one but two other Filipino gay guys my age, right? We're all '90s kids. They're like - one was like, I was in scouting. The other's like, I was an altar server. Like, one of them was just like, this was really spooky to read because you were basically writing about my life. And...

PARKER: Aw.

CURATO: Yeah. It's like, oh, my gosh. That's so cool. But also, thinking about my 14-year-old self, I thought there was no one else like me in the world, and I was a total freak. But there are so many of us living parallel lives, and we just didn't have a way to connect with each other. And now, all these years later, we discover, like, I wasn't alone, right? And I think that, you know, that gives people a lot of hope. It gives me hope - right? - like when I'm - now, when I am like, oh, my gosh. I can't believe I'm going through this thing. Even the book-banning thing - you know? - it's like, I know I'm not alone. I'm not the only person whose book's getting banned.

But, you know, just getting back to the younger readers - one time, I was at a book signing. Well, I did a talk, and then I did a book signing afterwards in the Midwest. And a teen came up to me and asked me to sign their book. And they asked me if I could write something for the dark times. I was like, yeah, I can do that. And so I was writing in their book, and they're like, wow. That's a lot of words. And I was like, that's OK. Sometimes we need a lot of words. You give someone some words when they need it, you know?

And they handed me this letter. And they said, I'm really shy, and there's stuff that I want to tell you, but I don't want to do it here. And I was like, sure, no problem. And I got back to my hotel room after the event, and I read the letter. And I feel like I already knew what it was going to say before I opened it. But I totally cried reading it because - yeah, I mean, I get it, you know? And it's like, yeah, you're the reason why I wrote this. Like, you are going through what I went through.

And I feel like I'm both scared for that youth, and I have so much hope for them. And there's someone that I think about when I hear all this book-banning BS. Like, I think about them, and I think about other people who've written me. And that is what makes it all worth it. It's like, you know what? If I had to listen to someone calling me a pedophile every day for the rest of my life, but the book gave that teenager, like, the strength to keep going, then that gives me strength to keep going.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRAGILE INFINITE'S "PORCELAIN")

CURATO: So I think it's very much about centering the narrative on the people that we're rooting for - right? - and not the naysayers. And it's a very difficult thing to do, but that has - it has become a new practice for me of just looking where the love is and trying to focus on that.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRAGILE INFINITE'S "PORCELAIN")

PARKER: (Crying) I'm sorry. You can't see I'm wiping my face...

CURATO: Oh, no.

PARKER: ...With a tissue.

(LAUGHTER)

CURATO: Oh.

PARKER: (Crying) Oh, no. It's OK. As long as - no - great. All the listeners can hear me cry, not you.

(LAUGHTER)

PARKER: Mike Curato, thank you so much for talking to me.

CURATO: Thank you. Oh, my gosh. This was a lot (laughter)...

PARKER: No, this was great.

CURATO: ... In a good way, in a good way. Yeah.

PARKER: Yeah.

(SOUNDBITE OF FRAGILE INFINITE'S "PORCELAIN")

PARKER: And that's our show. You can follow us on Instagram @nprcodeswitch. If email is more your thing, ours is [email protected]. And subscribe to the podcast on the NPR App or wherever you get your podcast. You can also subscribe to the CODE SWITCH newsletter by going to npr.org/codeswitchnewsletter.

DEMBY: And another way to support our work here is to sign up for CODE SWITCH+. It's really small, but it makes a big difference for us. And you'll get to listen to every single CODE SWITCH episode with no ads. Check it out at plus.npr.org/codeswitch. And thank you to everybody who's already signed up.

PARKER: This episode was produced by Xavier Lopez and Christina Cala. It was edited by Leah Donnella and Courtney Stein. Our engineer was Kwesi Lee. Our episode art was done by Jackie Lay.

DEMBY: And we would be remiss if we did not shout-out the rest of the CODE SWITCH massive - that's Jess Kung, Dalia Mortada, Veralyn Williams and Lori Lizarraga.

PARKER: I'm B.A. Parker.

DEMBY: And I'm Gene Demby. Be easy, y'all.

PARKER: Hydrate.

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