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STEPHEN THOMPSON, HOST:
Every night is a big night for Taylor Swift, but this year's Grammy night proved especially big. Swift won album of the year for "Midnights" and stole even more headlines by announcing her next album, due out in April. It may be time to pose the question, have we reached peak Taylor Swift? Other major winners included Miley Cyrus, Billie Eilish and SZA. In fact, women swept all nine categories presented during Sunday night's telecast. I'm Stephen Thompson. It is 12:43 a.m., and we are recapping this year's Grammys on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
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THOMPSON: Joining me today is NPR correspondent Anastasia Tsioulcas. Hello, Anastasia.
ANASTASIA TSIOULCAS, BYLINE: Hey, Stephen.
THOMPSON: Also with us, NPR music editor Hazel Cills. Hey, Hazel.
HAZEL CILLS, BYLINE: Hey.
THOMPSON: And rounding out our panel is "Switched On Pop" producer Reanna Cruz. Hey, Reanna.
REANNA CRUZ: Howdy.
THOMPSON: It is a pleasure to have you all here for this big night for Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift won album of the year for "Midnights." She is the first artist to win album of the year four times. She also won best pop vocal album for "Midnights" and announced a new album called "The Tortured Poets Department," dropping April 19. Reanna, kick us off. Give us your thoughts on Taylor Swift's big night.
CRUZ: Oh, man, you can't set me up like that, Stephen. You know, I feel like we as a culture are at the precipice of the Taylor Swift tipping point, I think. And I think tonight might be when the tides start to shift in Taylor overexposure, or at least that's my thoughts.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
CRUZ: You know? I don't know.
THOMPSON: I think some would say that tipping point may have arrived at some point in the past.
CRUZ: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe so. I don't know. I mean, I did not think "Midnights" was going to win. I had hoped it would be Lana or SZA, but, you know, such is life. The Grammy voters love Taylor. What more is there to say?
CILLS: Yeah, I similarly was really hoping that SZA was going to win. I just feel like, like Reanna, I've been so exhausted by Taylor Swift overload. But I also feel like because of that exhaustion, I was sort of primed for Taylor's win. So it didn't come as a huge surprise to me, but I was spending most of the ceremony with kind of, like, a conspiracy theorist tinfoil hat on my head, just hoping, hoping that it would go to anyone else.
TSIOULCAS: But there's also, like, the Grammy lag to keep in mind too, right? Like, these are all about albums that happened a while ago, and sort of we all have been so inundated with Taylor and the Taylor love affair and the Taylor hate affairs, you know, with the public and with football and everything else. Maybe we've all passed this already, but now it's like, oh, also, there's a Grammy.
THOMPSON: Yeah. I mean, "Midnights" came out in the fall of 2022.
CRUZ: Oh, wow.
THOMPSON: And so it felt like it might have lost momentum waiting this long to give out this award. So when it was sort of like it's Taylor Swift again, it was bound to feel like a little bit of a letdown. I do want to at least step into the Swiftie breach here and say I think "Midnights" is an excellent album. I don't necessarily have a problem with it getting Grammy love. I might have been rooting for others. You mentioned SZA. I think "SOS" is a phenomenal record. I love the boygenius record. I could have gone in a number of different directions here, but I think it feels like in the run-up to both the Grammys and the Super Bowl, it has felt a little bit like, OK, now this person is the main character of the day every single day, and it would be nice to get a little break, maybe focus on someone else for a little bit. And so I think the one-two of her winning and announcing the April launch of another new record, if - I had kind of gone into this Grammys-Super Bowl stretch thinking, like, OK, we're going to talk about Taylor Swift at the Grammys. We're going to talk about Taylor Swift for the Super Bowl because of Travis Kelce. Then maybe, like, she's going to go on tour overseas, and maybe we'll all take a short break from Taylor Swift. And that's very clearly not going to happen.
CRUZ: I also thought it was interesting how maybe Taylor's aware of this. And, you know, she tried to bring Lana up on the stage and, like, was trying to give Lana her flowers on the stage. But it felt very misguided to me.
THOMPSON: It did.
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TAYLOR SWIFT: Lana Del Rey, who is hiding...
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SWIFT: ...But I think so many female artists would not be where they are and would not have the inspiration they have if it weren't for the work that she's done.
CRUZ: Even when she announced the new album, I think everybody in the room was like, oh, man. Like, our records have to compete with Taylor Swift's now in the next few months. Like, it feels very overbearing, and I'm sure it feels that way for the music industry writ large.
CILLS: Yeah, I had such a flashback at that moment when she was trying to give her flowers to Lana of, like, teen Taylor and those kind of moments at awards ceremonies where she would sort of - it seemed like fake surprise when she'd get awards. And those moments that have happened at the Grammys for album of the year the last few years where the artist wins and they sort of feel like they need to gesture or sort of pay respect to the people who lost - I'm really tired of those moments. I feel like I wish Taylor, of all people, would just, like, own the spotlight that she clearly loves.
THOMPSON: Yeah, that moment with Lana Del Rey was weird, but it is worth noting Lana Del Rey did co-write and perform on one of the songs on "Midnights," so that Grammy is partially hers. It wasn't completely random, but it did have this feeling of, like, bringing someone who has just lost a Grammy that she presumably wanted to win and then had to stand up on stage trying to shrink into the background as much as possible. I felt for her in that moment, even though I don't want to question the sincerity of it. They are friends. They are collaborators. And I'm sure there was a sense of, like, I want to give this person their flowers, but it was a little odd. Thus concludes the Taylor Swift portion of this conversation.
CRUZ: (Laughter).
THOMPSON: I can't guarantee that her name will not be summoned again. But I want to list a few other winners and talk about them 'cause Miley Cyrus, who had never won a Grammy before tonight - which I actually was surprised - I had assumed that she had.
CRUZ: Likewise.
THOMPSON: She won for best pop solo performance for "Flowers," and she won record of the year for "Flowers," which is a massive - that's one of the biggest awards of the night. And she also performed "Flowers" and I think had, like, a very fun and dynamic presence during that performance.
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MILEY CYRUS: I just won my first Grammy.
(Singing) I can buy myself flowers...
TSIOULCAS: She was clearly having fun tonight, and I felt like she's really come into her own in a lot of ways. And, you know, while she was performing, she was wearing this outfit that sort of summoned both Celine Dion and Tina Turner for me - you know, with this huge, '70s, Nashville hair.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
TSIOULCAS: She was clearly having a lot of fun with it, which I loved to see.
CRUZ: I really enjoyed it. The whole time me and my friends were sitting on the couch - kind of gagged watching her performance. And then when she won the Grammys, we kept being like, oh, that was for "Plastic Hearts," actually.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
CRUZ: Oh, that was for "Dead Petz," actually. So, you know, Miley is a person that is very easy to root for, and watching her win and having so much fun with it and the way that she was calling out the crowd in her "Flowers" performance - she has the charisma. It's very hard not to like her, so I'm happy she won.
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CYRUS: (Singing) Write my name in the sand.
Why are you acting like you don't know this song?
THOMPSON: Miley Cyrus had a really interesting 2023. When you pair "Flowers" with the song "Used To Be Young," those songs are such interesting companion pieces to each other. And they kind of speak to where she is in her career, which is somebody who has grown up in this industry, who has been around for a very long time for how very young she still is and somebody who has certainly had some missteps and embarrassments along the way. She's kind of coming out where she feels comfortable in her own skin in a way that is - that you really love to see. You really love to see somebody kind of come out the other side and still be the assured artist that she's always been. I was really happy to see these wins.
Also having a big night - Billie Eilish, in what feels like it was maybe a preview of next month's Oscars. Billie Eilish won song of the year for "What Was I Made For?" from "Barbie: The Album." She performed the song with her brother, Finneas, who co-wrote the song with her. It also won best song written for visual media. This was certainly a big moment for "Barbie."
TSIOULCAS: Totally, and the performance was so sweet.
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BILLIE EILISH: (Singing) What was I made for?
TSIOULCAS: She was sort of doing this '60s vibe, like, early '60s vibe with the Barbie-ish/Audrey Hepburn-ish, you know, head scarf and sunglasses and hot pink and chartreuse. And, like, there was - it was very sweet. And Finneas behind a little upright piano, it was very endearing. And I think that win in particular sort of speaks to their strengths as songwriters. It's a songwriting award. It's not a performance award. And it was really nice to see them have that moment. And I agree with you. I think this is totally a preview of what's going to happen at the Oscars.
CILLS: Yeah. I'm slightly sad about that, just because I love "I'm Just Ken."
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
CILLS: Yeah, I think "What Was I Made For?" is just such a beautifully simple song, and I think this was a night that was filled with so many intense performances, performances filled with swords and fire and, like, people dancing in the audience.
THOMPSON: Blood dripping from the walls.
CRUZ: Yeah.
CILLS: Blood dripping from the walls. And what I love about Billie is that, you know, she can really just get up there with just her vocals and a piano beside her and just completely own that stage and captivate an audience as large as the Grammys. And, yeah, it's just - it's a wonderful song and beautiful performance.
THOMPSON: Next up, a big night for SZA, who won three Grammys of the nine she was nominated for - best R&B song for "Snooze," best pop duo/group performance for "Ghost In The Machine" featuring Phoebe Bridgers, who won four Grammys on Sunday, and best progressive R&B album for "SOS." She also performed a medley of "Snooze" and "Kill Bill."
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SZA: (Singing) I might kill my ex. I still love him though. Rather be in jail than alone.
THOMPSON: SZA, you know, was the most heavily nominated artist and definitely had a big night and got to accept an award as part of the telecast.
CRUZ: Well, that's why I wanted her to win Album of the Year. I thought she had Album of the Year on lock, you know, because if you look at the nominees, it's a very stacked category, but I was really rooting for her. And I thought, No. 1, it was strange that they put all the rap and hip-hop, you know, most of the R&B awards in the pre-show. So it's like SZA's wins, you don't really get to fully revel in. And I don't know, I felt she was ultimately snubbed despite having the most nominations, if that makes any sense.
CILLS: Yeah, it's easy to feel like people are snubbed at this year's Grammys because there wasn't, like, one central winner. Like, the wins in the major categories, I feel like, were pretty scattered. But I feel like, for SZA, seeing all those nominations, I really just wanted to, like, put all my weight behind her. I wanted her to, like, sweep and have one person be kind of the hero of the night. And if I had to pick someone in the major categories, it was definitely her.
THOMPSON: Yeah, I think you can make a very strong case for "SOS" as album of the year. It was - it came out in December of 2022, and then just songs from that record just kept becoming hits throughout 2023. It was a massive, massive record and, I think, a great record. And it's worth noting here, these conversations pop up. Jay-Z alluded to these conversations in a speech he gave tonight. The Grammys have a long history of giving a lot of Grammys in niche categories to Black artists. But then when the time comes to give Album of the Year, Record of the Year - a Black woman has not won Album of the Year since "The Miseducation Of Lauryn Hill." And he specifically talked about how Beyonce is the most awarded artist in Grammys history, but she has never won Album of the Year.
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JAY-Z: I don't want to embarrass this young lady, but she has more Grammys than everyone and never won Album of the Year. So even by your own metrics, that doesn't work.
THOMPSON: I couldn't help but think of that speech when they got to Album of the Year and gave it to Taylor Swift again, particularly given how strong "SOS" is.
TSIOULCAS: It was a great album. I'm also sorry to see that it didn't win. There was also, as you said, this resonance back to Lauryn Hill. I have to mention SZA and Lauryn Hill actually come from the same community, they went to the same high school, and there's a lot of poetry in that, right? And it was sad not to see it. And, you know, I think the Grammys say, sort of throwing their hands up in the air, well, we have 94 categories right now, you know, something has to be in the pre-telecast ceremony. And it's like, yeah, a lot of the same categories get shunted into the pre-telecast year after year after year. And there's only that really kind of superficial nod to them during the telecast, I think. So, yeah, we heard - what? - you know, Best R&B Song was the only R&B category that made it onto the televised ceremony. It does feel like a slight for sure.
CRUZ: Well, even, like, going off of what Jay-Z said, the Grammys made a big deal about making this Best African Music Performance category, but then they put it in the pre-show. And when Tyla won, it was really nice and lovely. And Tyla got a shout out on the main broadcast, but it was still in the pre-show, you know? And you have nominees in that category like Burna Boy playing on the main stage but that category is still not shown on the main broadcast, like, there's a disconnect in their thoughts, words and actions.
THOMPSON: And speaking of things that didn't happen on the main telecast, we should mention that Killer Mike picked up three Grammys for Best Rap Performance, Best Rap Song and Best Rap Album. He was then handcuffed and escorted out of the venue by police shortly before the televised ceremony, according to a report in Variety. And when reached by NPR at the time of this recording, the LAPD didn't provide any more information about reports of the arrest.
One artist who did win one of those awards during the telecast, Victoria Monet, speaking of R&B, won Best New Artist as well as Best R&B Album for "Jaguar II" - richly deserved, in my opinion - also Best Engineered Album, Non-Classical for "Jaguar II." It is, indeed, a fantastic-sounding record. Victoria Monet did not perform, which, given that she was nominated seven times and Won Best New Artist, I was a little surprised that they didn't make space for her.
CILLS: Yeah, same. I completely agree, especially because "On My Mama" was just, like, such an incredible song.
THOMPSON: Such a great song.
CRUZ: Major.
CILLS: Yeah, I was really, really happy to see Victoria Monet win Best New Artist. And I really felt very moved by her speech...
THOMPSON: I did, too.
CILLS: Because I'm an Ariana Grande fan. I've - Victoria Monet has been...
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CILLS: ...Working as songwriter, producer in the industry for so long. And it's been so amazing to see her have this kind of breakout year. And when she talked in her speech about her roots growing under the soil, and now she feels like she's finally, like, above ground with this album and this win, it was just really moving. And I'm super excited to see what happens for her, you know, after this night.
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VICTORIA MONET: And I like to liken myself to a plant. And my roots have been growing underneath ground unseen for so long. And I feel like today I'm sprouting finally above ground.
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THOMPSON: I'm really glad that you shouted out this speech, because the Victoria Monet speech really jumped out at me, and SZA's speech really jumped out of me, very, very heartfelt. And you really got a sense of, like, this felt for these artists like a culminating moment. The Grammys are nothing if not validation, right? And if you have been struggling in the industry for a long time, and Victoria Monet - I mean, Best New Artist? - Victoria Monet has been around a long time. She's been nominated for Grammys as a collaborator. She worked extensively on Ariana Grande's records but has worked with a lot of artists in the industry, put out a long string of EP's leading up to this moment. I mean, this was a - she definitely had a big breakthrough in 2023.
But I think both for her and for SZA, their speeches really gave me that sense of, like, when people say, who are the Grammys for, or does anybody care about the Grammys? These were artists who clearly cared very much about the moment that they got to stand on that stage and feel validated for a lifetime of hard work.
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SZA: I'm just very grateful, and I'm not an attractive crier. I have a good evening.
CRUZ: I think that's part of the reason why I enjoyed the telecast writ large because it had a lot of these speeches where you could feel the passion, and it made me care. And I liked that because in past years, while watching the Grammys - I tend to watch every year - there's moments I don't really care, you know, and that sucks. And watching this this year, I was watching, and I felt genuine compassion for most of the award winners in a way that I thought was very touching, and most.
THOMPSON: I felt that way for several of the winners.
CRUZ: For several.
THOMPSON: I did want to talk about the performances over the course of the night. There was a huge range of genres represented, a huge range of generations represented, and I thought one of the best performances of the night was by newly minted best folk album winner Joni Mitchell, who performed one of the greatest songs of all time, "Both Sides Now."
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JONI MITCHELL: (Singing) I looked at clouds. from both sides now. From up and down.
THOMPSON: So she performed "Both Sides Now" with an all-star cast around her. Brandi Carlile, Lucius SistaStrings, Allison Russell, Blake Mills, Jacob Collier, truly an all-star cast supporting her, and I just - I thought this performance was just beautiful. What did you guys think?
TSIOULCAS: It was so beautiful and touching. And the staging recreated the staging they did at the Newport Folk Festival with Joni Mitchell on this - we can just say it - a throne. She was seated on the throne.
THOMPSON: On a throne where she belonged.
TSIOULCAS: And it was so touching. I mean, it was her first time performing in the Grammys. And we can sit back and say, oh, my God, her first time performing on the Grammys. But lest we forget, the Grammys are not exactly welcoming to so-called niche genres during the broadcast ceremony, right? And Joni Mitchell, an icon, was sort of shunted aside as a folk musician. So in the larger scheme of things, I'm not super surprised it was her first time at the Grammys, but it was such a beautiful and tender and soulful moment and shared moment for so many artists on stage and shared between the artists and audience in a really profound way. I thought it was just beautiful.
CILLS: Watching the ceremony, I think we can all agree that this was a night that was dominated by women - women artists, and within that kind of framework, it felt so beautiful and powerful to have someone like Joni on that stage performing for the first time with this class of, you know, younger women who have come up after her, you know, especially someone like Brandi. It was like, I really want to resist this 'cause I feel like I'm my brain is leaning into, like, tidy, girl-power narratives. But it felt like the night was sort of correcting a lot of things about the Grammys past. I mean, Joni's performance within the context of this being such a powerful night for women in the industry, it just felt even more intense and beautiful of a performance.
THOMPSON: Speaking of moments that I was glad to get to watch, I really loved watching Luke Combs...
CILLS: (Laughter) Yes.
THOMPSON: ...And Tracy Chapman perform "Fast Car" together. Of all the reading I had done about the Grammys leading up to this telecast, I had somehow missed that Tracy Chapman was going to be performing, and so I just had a big, old, sloppy, emotional reaction to seeing the great Tracy Chapman back on a Grammy stage where she belongs and just watching Luke Combs love her and love the song. The looks they gave each other, I found really sweet and moving. I just could not have been happier.
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LUKE COMBS AND TRACY CHAPMAN: (Singing) I had a feeling that I belong. I had a feeling I could be someone, be someone, be someone.
TSIOULCAS: Honestly, I don't remember a Grammys ceremony - a Grammys telecast being so sweet, right? And having so many sweet moments because - I know, I am cynical. I will cop to it. But in many years of manufactured, trademarked Grammy Moments, capital G, capital M, I don't recall that level of pure joy, pure love and respect and admiration as I saw tonight both with Joni and with the Tracy Chapman, Luke Combs collaboration. It was really special.
CRUZ: The performance made me a fan of the cover. I was not until I saw it play out on stage and I was like, oh, OK. I see why people like this.
CILLS: Yeah. I think it was really easy to feel snarky about this cover. Like, I saw a lot of people online before the Grammys saying, like, why can't Tracy just perform by herself? But there is a real beauty in seeing those two artists perform together. And I - Stephen, like you said, there was this feeling of, like, giving flowers and just, like, really sort of Luke Combs being in love with this song and that being sort of what the performance is about and how multiple people can kind of share that song and make it their own. And, you know, I'm a cynic too, and I also thought it was a really sweet, sweet moment and performance.
THOMPSON: One thing that really stood out about this in memoriam segment, which was 20 minutes long, is how many major musicians died since the last Grammy telecast. You had - Tony Bennett died and Stevie Wonder came on and paid tribute to him, performed "For Once In My Life" and "The Best Is Yet To Come."
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STEVIE WONDER: (Singing) Still, it's a real good bet the best is yet to come.
THOMPSON: Annie Lennox from the Eurythmics performed "Nothing Compares To You" for Sinead O'Connor.
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ANNIE LENNOX: (Singing) Nothing compares to you.
THOMPSON: Jon Batiste performed several songs for Clarence Avant.
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JON BATISTE: (Singing) Ain't no sunshine when he's gone.
THOMPSON: And Fantasia Barrino and Adam Blackstone performed "Proud Mary" for Tina Turner. What did you all think of this kind of mashup of performances and the overall attempt to pay tribute to as many people as they could fit into that segment?
TSIOULCAS: I thought Annie Lennox channeled a lot of Sinead O'Connor's spirit. She was the one artist who, at the end of her performance, called for a cease-fire in the Israel-Hamas war.
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LENNOX: Artists for cease-fire - peace in the world.
TSIOULCAS: That felt very much like she was channeling Sinead O'Connor's tradition of activism in a really direct way.
CILLS: Yeah, I completely agree. I can think of Grammys past where it has sort of felt like a slideshow of names that are just set to a beautiful instrumental, and I think, even though this was a long segment, pulling in personal narratives and really pulling in performances that speak to these artists we've lost and speak to, you know, what they brought to the world is just way more compelling to watch and more memorable than just, you know, kind of a list of names.
THOMPSON: Very often, in memoriam segments are very dour, very understandably so. They are sad. People have died. But I liked the way these performances still found ways to evoke joy and a certain amount of energy. And I really appreciated the fact that they close out with Fantasia Barrino performing "Proud Mary" and dancing and - like, you are paying tribute to Tina Turner. Like, bring some Tina Turner energy. And she did.
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FANTASIA BARRINO: (Singing) Big wheel, keep on turning. Proud Mary, keep on burning. And we're rolling, rolling, rolling on the river.
THOMPSON: She's, like, strutting through the crowd and, like, swimming in this performance that is really evoking the spirit of Tina Turner. I really felt like that's a great way to pay tribute to those artists.
CRUZ: I hope they continue doing this because I feel like the in memoriam tributes have the opportunity to be very memorable, and I think there's a really great opportunity for artists to pay tribute to someone that they love and communicate that love through their performance. I felt it in Fantasia's. I felt it in Jon Batiste's. You know, like, I felt it overall through this segment. And I think they did it really well.
THOMPSON: Well, the in memoriam segment was an opportunity to bring out some veteran performers and survey some careers. There were also veteran performers who were just showcasing fresh material. Billy Joel showed up and performed his first new song in 30 years, "Turn The Lights Back On," came back on and did "You May Be Right." Reanna, what'd you think of Billy Joel?
CRUZ: So I have two conflicting feelings about Billy Joel being at the Grammys. The first performance with the new song, I thought, why?
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BILLY JOEL: (Singing) I'm late, but I'm here right now. And I'm trying to find the magic...
CRUZ: And I felt the same way with U2's ad for the Sphere - right? - you know, them playing their new song as well. Why are you playing new songs at the Grammys as an elder statesman and your song isn't nominated? That being said, when I was just about to turn the telecast off, Billy Joel - I hear the glass smashing, and he launches into "You May Be Right." And I was like, oh, OK, all is right in the world.
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JOEL: (Singing) You may be right. I may be crazy.
CRUZ: I appreciated him being there, and I appreciated him kind of getting everybody into a rousing, you know, finale for the show. I wanted U2 to play, like, "Beautiful Day" or something. I don't know.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
CRUZ: I wanted them to make the Sphere look terrible because I'm trying to get Dead & Company tickets so bad.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
CRUZ: So I wanted them, in some type of way, to make the Sphere look absolutely awful and not look like a good place to go so I can get tickets so easily.
THOMPSON: I'm just going to say it - mission accomplished...
CRUZ: Yeah, yeah.
THOMPSON: (Laughter) ...Because I found that whole segment that U2 did at the Sphere to be - the word I'm looking for, I think, is nauseating to watch. Not that I thought the performance was bad or that the venue doesn't, in its own way, look cool, but it was so uncanny valley. There were just, like, drones swooping around. It sounds weird for me to be like, I feel old because of this newfangled concert by U2.
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CRUZ: Let the 24-year-old go to Dead & Company.
THOMPSON: (Laughter) Awesome. All right, well, of course we could not talk about every winner in the 94 categories. We couldn't talk about every performance. We didn't even get a chance to talk about Trevor Noah. We want to know what you think about this year's Grammys ceremony and winners. Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Reanna Cruz, Hazel Cills, Anastasia Tsioulcas, thanks so much for being here.
CRUZ: Thanks for having us.
CILLS: Thank you.
TSIOULCAS: Thanks so much.
THOMPSON: This episode was produced by Mike Katzif and Hafsa Fathima and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Engineering support was provided by Stacey Abbott. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Stephen Thompson, and we will see you all tomorrow.
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