(SOUNDBITE OF THE BIGTOP ORCHESTRA'S "TEETER BOARD: FOLIES BERGERE (MARCH AND TWO-STEP)")
SUSAN DAVIS, HOST:
Hey, there. It's the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. And we're celebrating Juneteenth, so something a little different today. I recently sat down with New Jersey Democratic Congressman Andy Kim to talk about his run for Senate. He went from long shot candidate to presumptive front-runner in a matter of months. And he did it by taking on his own party's power brokers and indicted incumbent Senator Bob Menendez, who's running as an independent while on trial for corruption charges. Kim's also a Democrat who won a district Donald Trump won twice, so I wanted to get his take on the Senate race and the state of American politics.
Congressman Andy Kim, thank you so much for coming into the studio.
ANDY KIM: Thanks for having me today.
DAVIS: I was hoping we could start with you recalling back to the day that you ultimately decided that you were going to jump into the Senate race because it does seem like it was a jump. This wasn't a big, long-thought-out, long-running plan of yours to get into this race.
KIM: No, it was definitely not. You know, I have a 6-year-old and an 8-year-old - two little boys. I have my - I was not necessarily thinking I would take on a statewide Senate campaign. But I saw the indictment of Senator Menendez come out, and, like many other people across New Jersey, across the country, just - yeah, we saw it, and it just, like, it just, unfortunately, just feeds into this deep distrust that so many people have of government right now. Eighty-four percent of people in New Jersey believe that their politicians are corrupt. And it just broke my heart. That's just, like, another example that's just going to further weaken and make things more toxic.
So I just - you know, I called for the senator to step down. I was the first from New Jersey, and I thought maybe that might be the end of my political career, just given how things often go in New Jersey with our machine politics. But I remember talking to my wife and just thinking through what it is that is our role - like, what should we do about this as, you know, we're now in a place where I'm a congressman right now. So we decided to take the plunge and just jump in. We - I announced my campaign for senate within 24 hours of the indictment - not something I planned to do, but it's something I felt compelled to do.
DAVIS: You basically had no campaign infrastructure set up before you announced you were going to run?
KIM: No. I remember talking to some of my political advisers, my past campaign managers. I talked to them, and I asked them, like, you know, I'm thinking about doing this. What would you recommend? And many of them said, oh, well, look, we can build out a six-week roadmap here. We can have a launch video. We can have a website and a press plan. And I remember just telling them on the phone, like, what would you say if I launched in three hours from now?
DAVIS: What if I hit send on this tweet that I have...
KIM: Yes.
DAVIS: ...Here on my phone right now?
KIM: Which is basically - I read - I actually, like, drafted a tweet, which is - actually ended up being what I sent off. I didn't get a single minute of sleep that night.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: You know, I really felt like I had to do something and really show people that, you know, when there's these problems in our politics, that there are people who want to step up and try to fix it. I don't want people to just feel apathetic about the - you know, the distrust in government.
I've been cited saying this line a lot lately, where I say I believe that the opposite of democracy is apathy. And I think that apathy grows so strong when people believe that, you know, people in politics are corrupt or not in it for the right reasons - just in it for their own ego and their ambition. You know, I work at the Capitol, and I work alongside a lot of people there that are more interested in being social influencers rather than lawmakers.
DAVIS: Sure.
KIM: So you can see why people feel like, you know, this isn't working.
DAVIS: So you get into this race, and you're running in a state which has this really prescriptive political process in the way that candidates are endorsed, the way they run and the way that they appear on the ballot. I'm hoping that you could articulate what the line is to someone who is not from New Jersey and has never seen a ballot that looked like the ones that most voters in New Jersey have seen for generations.
KIM: Yeah, I mean, I think the best way to frame it is just, you know, we're the last statewide machine politics in America. And what that allows is that it allows party leaders to give preferential placement on their ballots for their preferred candidates. And it's designed in a way that's different than 49 other states. New Jersey has their ballots in a unique way, and it's one that is just inherently unfair. The ballot is paid by taxpayers - like, it is a sacred document. It is not just - it's not some political partisan document owned by political parties.
DAVIS: Did you benefit, though, from the line ballot in running in your first three campaigns for the House? Like, did - that was the ballot you kind of appeared on for your first campaigns?
KIM: I mean, I didn't have primary challenges for my first few races...
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: ...So it didn't necessarily have an impact. It could have - you know, it could have potentially had an impact if there was someone who maybe thought about running but chose not to because of, you know, the line issue on that front. But, yeah, look, I mean, you know, it is a system that I didn't really fully understand when I first came into politics because, you know, I - that's just the ballot I knew. I didn't fully understand, like, how different it was. I took the step of filing a lawsuit. And that was, I'll tell you, very scary.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: It was nerve-racking. I mean...
DAVIS: I imagine that made a lot of people mad in the state of New Jersey.
KIM: They are still - yeah, some still quite upset at me. But it was the right thing to do, and it was important to take on and show that this type of entrenched power doesn't need to continue on - that this is not something that allows for people to have the kind of say in their politics that they deserve to have in New Jersey.
DAVIS: What was your message to people that was resonating? And was part of it like, this whole system stinks? Like, there's an element of having a senator under indictment, a ballot system that seems in - like, intended to protect the people in power and, you know, nepo baby politics of having the governor's wife run. It seemed like just the right sort of stew to be able to make the average joe voter be like, something here isn't right.
KIM: So I think a lot of people felt what I felt - just deep frustration and disappointment in our politics. And that there - it needs to change. It just cannot - and it's not just about the Senator. I mean, people - you know, I've been feeling this for a while, and that's why I stepped up to run - deep problems structurally of gerrymandering or, you know, big money and dark money and Citizens United decision and the filibuster - all these structural things that we get so frustrated about.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: And I think I was able to channel that frustration 'cause I feel it, too.
DAVIS: I think about this mistrust thing a lot as, I think, to your point, like, right now, there's so much mistrust - not just in government, but almost in, like, your fellow Americans - like the polarization. And people don't trust you. They don't trust me, right? They don't trust government. They don't trust the media. If you had like a magic wand - right? - like, if you had unilateral power to try to improve that situation, like, where do you put your focus? Like, how do you think you start to build that back? And is it something you can legislate, or is it something that you just have to demonstrate?
KIM: Well, there's no single piece of legislation I can write that will immediately fix this...
DAVIS: Sure.
KIM: ...Or rid the world - I mean, part of this is an unraveling of what I see happening in our democracy - that we're losing touch with the idea that we're part of something bigger than all of us, that there's some commonality there. You know, our - the motto above the Oval Office and the Capitol Dome is E pluribus unum - right? - out of many, one. But we're getting to the point where it's, like, out of many, many. Like, we're not finding that common thread anymore. And it's demonstrated by the fact that 50% of Americans surveyed believe that people in the other political party are the enemy. They, like, they'll use that word enemy. And I think that's so dangerous. Like, I could...
DAVIS: I do, too. I think it's scary.
KIM: Yeah. I mean, that's what allows for January 6 to happen.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: You know, if you think that other people are the enemy, if you don't have respect for our institutions, that's why you can feel like you can smash the windows and smash the doors of our capitol - because you don't respect what's happening there. You know, so, like, it's not easy.
I mean, a couple of things - it's just, you know, definitely, you know, deep disinformation that we're seeing right now. And as someone who represented a district Trump won twice, having to work and engage with a lot of people that voted for Trump, you know, I would engage and listen to them. I would do town halls, and, you know, I'd hear a lot of things that I felt like - I would ask them, like, where are you getting this information?
No. 2 is, like, I think that we do need to reinvigorate civics education in this country. You know, just a lot of people are really struggling to understand what is actually happening down here in D.C. and what are the roles - like, what we should be trying to hold our elected officials to do in terms of their jobs.
I've also introduced legislation that would try to build a national service program architecture to try to reinvigorate. I really do believe - and this is something that, you know, after January 6, people asked me - like, you know, like, are you going to continue to be in politics? Are you going to do this? And I said, yes, I'm actually going to now dedicate my life to trying to solve and address one singular question, which is, how do we heal this country? And I don't know the full answer right now, but I think a big part of that is that we need to reignite and inspire a new era of public service in this country. You know, we need another, you know, ask not what your country can do for you kind of moment in America to try to counteract, you know, this unraveling that is happening right now.
DAVIS: OK, let's take a quick break - and more with Congressman Kim when we get back.
And we're back. Prior to getting into the Senate race, you did have a viral moment of that picture of you picking up trash in the Capitol after January 6. And did it surprise you how much that image resonated with people?
KIM: It did. I didn't even realize I was being photographed. I originally didn't want to talk about it because, you know, I - what I did was not heroic. It was what I would hope, you know, any American would do in that situation. But I did come to realize - you know, I started receiving literally thousands of handwritten letters from people from all over the country. Many of them had never heard of me before. And I think I realized that, you know, on a day where people saw such horrible images of things we never thought we would see - surreal images about - that really made people worry about the decline of American democracy - I think it was refreshing for people to be reminded that, you know, there is still decency in public service and people who are trying to do this work.
I remember when the Smithsonian called me and asked me if they could have the suit that I was wearing - the blue suit that I was wearing. I remember telling them, like, you know, it's just a off-the-rack J.Crew suit...
DAVIS: Oh, it's like - it's just a...
KIM: ...That I got (laughter).
DAVIS: ...Jos. A. Bank (laughter).
KIM: Yeah. Like, it's not - you know, I got it half off during the holidays.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: But, you know, I - if it can help tell the story of recovery and resilience and try to embody some of the values that I think are important, I'm happy to play a role in trying to promote that because I really do think that this problem that we're facing right now as a country is deep to the bone and that it really gets to this fundamental question of - what does it mean to be an American? You know, what is it that we are trying to do together? And we saw how collective action crumbled during the pandemic and other things.
You know, I think we're at a really difficult moment. And I really do believe that the next four to five years are going to shape the next four to five decades of this country. And I think that a lot of people are worried about whether or not we have people in government that can try to help steer us through these tumultuous periods, and I hope that what I'm trying to do and what others that I respect in government are trying to do gives people a sense that we can't disengage. We can't withdraw - that we have to be able to lean in.
DAVIS: I'm glad you brought up identity because one of the things I read when I was, you know, catching up on things for this interview is talking about identity - because if you win the Senate, you would be the first Korean American Senator.
KIM: Yeah, and I'd be the first Asian American in the Senate from the East Coast of America.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: So I'm starting to conceptualize what this means.
DAVIS: Well, it was, I think - and I don't want to - I wanted to ask you about it 'cause I don't want to mischaracterize what you were saying - but that it was like, for a lot of your life, when people would talk about your identity, you would identify as an American first - but that being a Korean American also matters in terms of having a seat at the table.
And we talked - identity politics are part of this, like, tension that's happening in America right now. And I wonder how you sort of - where you are with that, how you identify and how people who are maybe not, you know, white and male should have this space in politics.
KIM: Yeah. You know, when I first started to run for Congress in 2017, I had a number of people, including in my party, tell me, you know, I was wasting my time. You know, my district was 80 - about 85% white, less than 3% Asian, that voted for Trump. They were just like, there's no way you're going to win this.
And so I thought a lot about this and what identity politics means. What does it mean that this, you know, 85% white district that voted for Trump twice has now three times elected a Korean American Democrat to...
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: ...Be their voice in Congress? And that gives me some hope that, you know, actually, we can get through this. And it gives me a sense of road map of how to build that. And I - you know, I want to - I want my 6-year-old and my 8-year-old to grow up in an America where - you know, where I - you know, me or other Asian Americans - we can represent not just Asian American-heavy areas of America, but we have every bit as much right to represent anywhere in this country, you know? I don't want other people determining what I am or am not capable of accomplishing simply because of the color of my skin and my last name.
So that sense of identity that is unraveling - I do feel like a lot of what needs to knit it back together is about that sense of engagement with one another that we're losing touch with when it comes to just interacting online and social media. We're losing communal space and civic space out there and, you know, different ways to be able to interact with one another. We're losing touch with just how to interact with each other with a sense of respect. But it does require a level of investment and engagement.
And the way I'll sort of describe it here is it requires a certain amount of acceptance of discomfort in one's life. Like, in politics in particular, like, if you're only having comfortable conversations out there with people, it means you're not talking to all the people you need to talk to. But a lot of times, people want to just, you know, kind of surround themselves with those that already agree with them, and...
DAVIS: And most lawmakers live in very safe bubbles, right?
KIM: Yeah.
DAVIS: Most democrats...
KIM: That's part of the problems with gerrymandering.
DAVIS: ...Are in very blue, and most Republicans are in red.
KIM: Yeah. But, you know, when - in 2020, I was one of only seven Democrats in the country that won a district Trump won.
DAVIS: Yeah.
KIM: There were about - what? - 223 Democrats in the House of Representatives. Only seven of us won districts Trump won. It requires you to go out and try to listen to people and actually engage and not section off. So I really try to encourage people. You know, it's OK to feel discomfort. It's OK to be uncomfortable when you're talking with people, but you can still respect them and still engage with that.
DAVIS: Let's assume for the sake of this argument that you win in November, which, you know, it can't be predicted, but you're well positioned, assuming that you win on the primary. You get to the Senate. What do you want to do there?
KIM: Yeah, you know, I can't say I necessarily already have a vision. You know, I think the kind of politics I practice - if there's one word I try to associate, it's humility. I try to come into my work. You know, I don't have all the answers. I don't know exactly how to be able to navigate all this. But I hope to be somebody that can bring some strategic vision and planning - you know, try to push the horizon of what it is that we're trying to do.
Like, the way I sort of describe it is like, what does success look like for America? Like, what would we say 20, 30 years from now, like, oh, that's what we want to achieve, you know, and be able to build towards? I want to be able to bring a reform agenda. I want to be able to deliver and show that we're trying to fix this.
And yeah, I'm excited. Like I said, I think there's a hunger in this country for a new generation of leadership to step up. I would be, you know, 42 years old when sworn in. I think it's valuable to have the perspective of young parents in the Senate, in our government, to bring a lot of other types of diversity to that mix.
DAVIS: Do you think that the people of New Jersey are ready to have two senators who are known for just being very polite and nice? - 'cause that kind of goes against the stereotype of your state. And I can say that as a Philadelphian, born and raised.
KIM: Yeah. Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
KIM: You know, I think people are ready for something different, and I think we'll - we can really show that maybe it was that type of kind of brash and aggressive and machine politics - maybe that was the outlier this whole time rather than us.
DAVIS: Congressman, thank you so much for coming in.
KIM: Thanks for having me.
DAVIS: That's all for today. We'll be back in your feeds tomorrow. I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics, and thanks for listening to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE BIGTOP ORCHESTRA'S "TEETER BOARD: FOLIES BERGERE (MARCH AND TWO-STEP)")
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