Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GLEN WELDON, HOST:
The brilliant and idiosyncratic New HBO series "Fantasmas" has a simple plot. Julio Torres searches New York City for an earring he lost at a club. In the execution, though, that quest gets transformed into something epic and surreal and queer in every sense of the word. He keeps bumping into random New Yorkers whose stories we then see play out in a series of sketch-like vignettes. They're played by some very familiar faces and voices like Emma Stone, Bowen Yang and Tilda Swinton. I'm Glen Weldon, and today we're talking about "Fantasmas" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
WELDON: Joining me today is Isabella Gomez Sarmiento. She's a producer on NPR's culture desk and Book Of The Day Podcast. Hey, Isabella.
ISABELLA GOMEZ SARMIENTO, BYLINE: Howdy. Thank you for having me.
WELDON: Howdy. Also with us is entertainment host, culture commentator and GLAAD media consultant Ryan Mitchell. Welcome back, Ryan.
RYAN MITCHELL: Well, hello. It's always a good time.
WELDON: It is. And especially going to be today, I think, 'cause this show is like nothing else on my TV. In "Fantasmas," Julio Torres is Julio, a performer in New York City who dreads having his free spirited - read - chaotic - artistic freedom coopted and commodified. And while his true talent for divining the true essence of objects and concepts isn't particularly marketable, his status as a queer El Salvadoran American is something his agent Vanesja is eager to exploit. She is played fantastically by Martine Gutierrez.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "FANTASMAS")
MARTINE GUTIERREZ: I'm a very important talent agent here on very serious business.
JULIO TORRES: She's a performance artist performing as my agent, but she's been doing it for so long and now she's just doing, like, regular agent stuff.
WELDON: When Julio loses his brand-new golden earring oyster at a club, he sets off to find it, encountering a surreal array of distinctly Torresian (ph) characters - gay, coke head hamsters, the letter Q, and many more. Torres also created the series, and lurking under the surface are many of his artistic obsessions, which you may be familiar with if you know his work from the series, "Los Espookys" and the movie "Problemista." The oppressiveness of faceless institutions like the immigration system, credit cards and banks, hypochondria and the knock on effects of white privilege. "Fantasmas" is airing on HBO and streaming on Max. Isabella, let me start with you. What do you make of this?
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I love it. I am also a Julio stan. Like, I have done a "Los Espookys" Halloween costume with my friends.
WELDON: Sure.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I just think if you're a person who has really vivid dreams, I feel like this show is, like, getting to consciously go exist there for a little while. Like, it's these made-up worlds, these made-up stories where nothing makes sense, but everything makes sense at the same time, and that's completely my jam. So yeah, big, big fan.
WELDON: Big, big fan. How about you, Ryan?
MITCHELL: I also have been describing this show as, like, what an experience, because I don't really know the words or the language. You know, I've always known about Julio from being online, but I really wasn't familiar with his work. So I'm kind of speaking from that audience POV of being like, who is this person, and why am I obsessed? And I am familiar with his stand-up, "My Favorite Shapes," which, really, I would suggest everyone watch after they watch this show, because it really will paint the picture of, like, what's going on in this person's mind.
WELDON: Yep.
MITCHELL: But honestly, I'm so shocked that something so weird and gay was actually able to be made in this way. Like, shout out to this, and he's completely just, like, next level. Like, It's a beautiful moment to see.
WELDON: Yeah. We'll talk about the queerness. But first, I just want to say, man, I'm with y'all. I mean, there's so much here that's funny and weird and surreal, but don't get it twisted because there is substance here. I love it when his approach kind of gets some grit in the gears.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: He starts to kind of stealthily make a point. And I'm not going to spoil them, but there's a couple of things that happened in Episode 4 - a couple of vignettes, one that involves Kate Berlant and Spike Einbinder as Berlant's character keeps trying to get this superhero fanboy character played by Einbinder to interrogate his love of superhero stories and the corporations that make them. And I felt like the show was coming for me in that moment, and I felt very seen and targeted.
There's another one where the great Greta Titelman plays a white woman and the delivery guy who's played by "Los Espooky's" Bernardo Velasco. He's asking how to get this official documentation that the show makes a big thing of...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Proof of existence. He asks her, and she simply does not understand the question because she's never had to understand the question. She doesn't even know how to begin to answer him. And there's plenty of gags that I love, people I love - Cole Escola, John Early, Steve Buscemi, Kim Petras, Aidy Bryant, Ziwe, but it's moments like that - those two moments - that - I don't want to say ground the series, 'cause this series, I would not call grounded - but it reminds you that this approach is not just like a stylistic tick, it's the point of view. And it's a very pointed one. It's all of a piece. Would you agree?
MITCHELL: I think, for me, I would agree with that, but we're people who actually, like, look at art from a very critical lens. And I always wonder, this type of art, it makes your brain tingle and makes it work. But I always wonder, is this for everyone? This is not a show - and I think Julio's very intentional about that - it's not a show that's supposed to be for the masses. It's really supposed to be for the girlies who, you know, go to the museums or, you know, they're really kind of critically looking at systematic issues in ways that, one, makes it easier for them to digest, and maybe - and that's with humor through this kind of whimsical experience. But I always wonder, I'm like, what - how did he describe what this - who's this audience? How does he talk about this?
WELDON: What's the elevator pitch for this series, right?
MITCHELL: Yeah. Yeah.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: And how did they give him money for it? That's what I kept asking myself because I'm like...
MITCHELL: Yes.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: ...This is so brilliant, but, like, how did they give him the money to do this?
WELDON: Well, they didn't give him a lot - right? - because it's all on a sound stage, and that's kind of deliberate to kind of speak to, Isabella, what you're saying about the dream light effect. So, I mean, you know, it is its own thing. You know, I've seen some reviewers call this whimsical, which is a word that always kind of sets my teeth on edge, because whimsy is one of those words that kind of exists in a liminal space. If you like something, you call it whimsical, if you don't like something you call it twee. And twee is the last word I would use here, 'cause there is a sharpness here. There is an edge to what he's doing, right?
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah. I mean, he's kind of touching the third rail throughout in different ways. I especially liked - there's one vignette, which is Jaboukie Young-White plays this influencer. And it's funny, too. It's very meta because, like, Jaboukie is sort of this person who is, like, he calls his fans his consumers. It's so direct about corporate greed and the way that it plays into internet culture and how maybe we're all trying to convince ourselves there's something more meaningful behind it other than consumption but, like, maybe there's not. And he has this one-off, little joke about is it an acting career that I'm after, and, like, he doesn't even...
MITCHELL: Yeah.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Nobody really knows what the point of it is other than to spend money. So yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the really big, existential issues that I try to avoid when I go on TikTok, Julio sort of puts back in your face. And it's like, what are you doing with all this time that you're spending?
WELDON: Yeah.
MITCHELL: Yeah. That's also kind of what I enjoy, going back to, like, the production design and the aesthetic. Like, I love the fact that it was shot on this sound stage because I think a lot of the show is about exposing how ridiculous this whole simulation of a life is. And I think there was a way that they were able to kind of add that level of, like, oh, there's no walls here, and you can tell, like, this is on a sound digital stage, and it looks like the Roku City. Like - you know? - like...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Totally.
MITCHELL: You know? Like, it...
WELDON: Yeah.
MITCHELL: ...Really, for me, I think, was just another character in the show that made me feel like, wow, am I at one point watching, like, "Mad TV," like a sketch, or am I, like, watching this really beautiful story where it's like, maybe we shouldn't be taking everything so seriously? Maybe this is actually the whole point of this, you know...
WELDON: Right.
MITCHELL: ...Which I really enjoyed. I really, really enjoyed how the production design was an extension from it. Even the costume design - I mean, like...
WELDON: Yeah.
MITCHELL: ...Absolutely perfect if you really think about it.
WELDON: Yeah. I mean, we're underscoring the artifice of it. That's what we're doing here, which is what theater does, right? I mean, this is exactly...
MITCHELL: Yes.
WELDON: And it did feel - there is a theater, there is a sketch vibe here. But it's more than that - right? - 'cause I was trying to isolate, why does this feel absurd, surreal and not merely twee? And I think when I tried to isolate what was giving it the edge, I came away with queerness. I mean (laughter), as you all mentioned, I mean, imagine a universe in which Julio Torres is straight. It's tough to do, but try to. If he were telling stories with this approach, I think it might come off as what Wes Anderson gets accused of a lot - you know, mannered, twee, over-stylized, self-indulgent. I don't get that from this...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Because his approach is filtered through his sensibility, through a sense of - I mean, pick the grad school word of choice, like otherness, outsider status...
MITCHELL: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Marginalized status, sexual minority. It gives it a point of view, so it doesn't feel like it's stylistic indulgent. It feels like it's coming from a place of not mere cleverness or archness, but of, like - it's coming from a place of personal truth.
MITCHELL: Yes.
WELDON: This is how I see the world.
MITCHELL: Yes.
WELDON: It feels honest...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: ...I guess I would say.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah. And there's a deep sensitivity to it because even though I know it's supposed to be funny, like, this whole idea of Julio as a character who can, like, understand and communicate with objects and with water and with, you know, whatever - like, that little sketch about the letter Q, I was, like, in my feels about that, you know? Like, it's really emotionally truthful in so many ways. It doesn't just feel like it's silly or it's, you know, a dumb joke that you're supposed to laugh at.
MITCHELL: And it also is a moment where I feel like there was a sketch with the teacher and the student, and...
WELDON: Sure.
MITCHELL: ...The student kind of comes in at the end of the series. And I was like, oh, this is also, like...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
MITCHELL: ...A love letter to yourself. Like, that is kind of, like, the queer storytelling that we all kind of experience, when we're like, oh, if only we could use our art to kind of talk to ourselves at that moment. And I think Julio did a really beautiful job at kind of talking to himself. I felt like, oh, I want to know what his personal experience growing up was, dealing with being a person of color, dealing with also the nuances of being queer and a person of color. So it's kind of - it was so wonderful to watch in these moments where I was like, oh, yeah, this is so much bigger than what we're seeing at surface level.
WELDON: Yeah, because there is something about that. Ryan, you make a great point because this is what happens when somebody is othered, right? When society puts you in a box or off in a corner, when it comes time for you to finally speak, the otherness that society has marked you with becomes a part of who you are. It's shaped you, and it doesn't define you, but it is - you're the filter through which it passes. So...
MITCHELL: You're a ghost.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
MITCHELL: You're literally a ghost.
WELDON: Yeah, and so he's expressing that - it's not outrage, but there is defiance here. There is an edge. There is a sharpness. There is something here that is not just whimsy and artifice and dreamlike, you know, storytelling. There's something more grounded here. I guess I'm going to call it grounded after all, even though I refused to say that.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Well, and it's a refusal to conform, like, throughout the entire six episodes, you know, and all of the different situations he finds himself in and all of the different things that people around him are telling him. It's this refusal to, like, abide by anything other than what he thinks is his truth and, like what is interesting and important to him, even when the people around him don't understand it. And I thought that was, like, such a beautiful through line as he's going through all of these, like, ridiculous adventures and meeting all of these ridiculous people.
MITCHELL: Yeah, I do feel like it is a breath of fresh air - right? - in this kind of, like, moment in time where all we're getting is reboots and just, like, it does feel like something that needs to be made. But it feels like how does Julio Torres become, like, bigger than this, and how does he expand and how does he tap into other things that he's not tapping into because it does sometimes feel like it's so much? I had to watch episodes, like, multiple times to really kind of understand that. And so I wonder, yes, it's a beautiful thing that he gets to make this incredible piece of art. But it's, like, is it sustainable?
WELDON: Well, I mean, you know, as we say on the show many times, it's not for everyone, but nothing good ever is. But that's the thing. I want to ask you both about this because, I mean, it's a great point. What does success for a voice this idiosyncratic and this singular look like? Do you want him to get, quote-unquote, "bigger"? I mean, this is an HBO show. That's, I think, what many people would define as mainstream success. And yet it's still him. Would I want some studio to attach him to, like, the next Marvel or DC property? No. What's next for him? What do you want for him?
MITCHELL: That's a big question. I mean, honestly, they already remade "Willy Wonka," and he should have been Willy.
WELDON: Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
MITCHELL: Like, that's just immediately what I kept thinking about. Like, oh, my God, imagine him as Willy Wonka.
WELDON: Yeah.
MITCHELL: (Laughter) But I don't know. I think he kind of tells us in this show that he probably doesn't want the mainstream success, right? I think he's very clear about that, but it's so interesting the balance of being an artist because, yes, you've still got to pay your bills, and you still want to feel like you have this kind of critical acclaim that I believe this show will end up getting in some ways. What's the balance of that? You don't want to become the - at the hand of the man, you know what I mean? And so I would love to see more projects from him, but I just wonder how bigger audiences would take it in, if I'm being quite honest. I just did not see a world - if I was talking to someone who didn't - wasn't a creative, would they get it?
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah. I mean, to me, like, this felt like such a big success because I think it really got into, like, the weirdest little moments in "Los Espookys" that his character had. You know, he could talk to the moon, and he had, like, this siren figure that he communicated with. And I was like, oh, this is, like, an entire show that's just those small moments. So to me, it was like, oh, he managed to, like, take the weirdness to another level in this project. So it's kind of the opposite of what Ryan is saying 'cause I just hope he keeps getting weirder and more niche, to be honest, 'cause I feel like that's where he's going, and I respect someone carving that lane out for themself and being like, this is what matters to me, and I'm going to make it work.
WELDON: One of his pet obsessions is the commodification of art and the notion of selling out is because he's had so much experience with riding that line. He wrote for "SNL," which is maybe the most mainstream comedy outlet...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Right now, and has been for many, many years. It is an institution. He wrote for a comedy institution.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: The question that "Problemista" asked was, can you take what he does and sustain it over the course of a film? I think the answer there is yes. And here he went back. He's going back to sketch, basically. He's saying, I want to tell an overarching story. I want to take everything from "Problemista," one overarching story, but I also want to go back to my sketch roots and tell a story with jokes. I mean, I wouldn't want to see him...
MITCHELL: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Change too much. I think this is the sweet spot for him. This is what he does. And if mainstream America doesn't get it, if people don't get it, that's on them.
MITCHELL: I don't want to sound like I want him to change because I think he's so special and spectacular. I just wonder - yes, this lucky moment happened where, like, he got HBO to, like, make this thing for him. What's next? And maybe that's continue working with, like, Emma Stone and Fruit Tree. You know what I mean? Like, I think...
WELDON: Yes.
MITCHELL: ...Working with those creatives that allow you and uplift you that has that kind of entertainment industry power, but allows you to, like, make your own lane and be like, OK, we can do this. We'll play the game, but you still do you.
WELDON: Maybe that's the way. Do you guys have any specific vignettes, any cameos you want to call out, anybody you want to single out? I just don't want to leave without mentioning Martine Gutierrez, who we mentioned in the opening. She plays Vanesja, his agent. And, man, she is just chomping through that scenery, and I'm here for it, and...
MITCHELL: Who's the girl from "Powerpuff Girls" that they never showed her face, but she wore the red - like, the red outfit? There's something...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: The Secretary?
WELDON: The Secretary.
MITCHELL: Yes, the Secretary. And there was something very Secretary from "Powerpuff Girls" about her that I was just like, please, I need you in my life. Like, I need you (laughter). I want to be you.
WELDON: People say, you know, she could read the phonebook, and I'd pay attention. But, I mean, real talk, she could read the phonebook, and I would just be...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yes.
WELDON: ...I'd roll over and let her scratch my stummy (ph) - my tummy.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah. She was, like, perfectly styled as, like, a '90s telenovela villain, like the ones from those really - like, just the perfect lipstick, the perfectly coiffed hair. Like, it could be a whole show just about her.
WELDON: Yep.
MITCHELL: And it should be. That's the spin-off for this because I'm not done with her.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
MITCHELL: I also really love - shout out to Julia Fox. Honestly...
WELDON: Sure.
MITCHELL: ...Bowen Yang and that Julia Fox court moment with the...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
MITCHELL: ...Mrs. Claus and the elf - absolutely chef's kiss. That's made me scream. And I also love the little ones. I'm going to leave that up for y'all because there's so much about gay culture and queer culture in that (laughter), but I'm going to save that for the kitchen table talk with my girls after this episode.
(LAUGHTER)
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah, I'll also say Paul Dano. I was not...
WELDON: Yeah.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: ...Expecting that, and it happened so early on. And I was like, OK, let's ride. Like, I'm - I - this is going to be good.
WELDON: Whenever you see an established - quote-unquote, "established" celebrity actor who comes to a show like this, my only thought is they get it.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah.
WELDON: It just endears me to them even more. Well, we want to know what you think about "Fantasmas." You've heard our many, many thoughts. Find us at facebook.com/PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show. Ryan Mitchell, Isabella Gomez Sarmiento, thank you so much for being here.
MITCHELL: Thank you for having me.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Thank you.
WELDON: This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
Copyright © 2024 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.