Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
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GLEN WELDON, HOST:
The new Disney+ "Star Wars" series, "The Acolyte," is a murder mystery. Someone is killing great Jedi masters. And while we learn pretty early on who's doing the killing, the real mystery driving the series is why they're doing it. By the time it's finished its eight-episode run, "The Acolyte" may shed new light on the nature of the Force and the hidden history of the Jedi. I'm Glen Weldon, and today we're talking about "The Acolyte" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
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WELDON: Joining me today is filmmaker, pop culture critic and iHeart radio producer Joelle Monique. Hey, Joelle.
JOELLE MONIQUE: Hey, Glen. Thanks for having me back.
WELDON: Of course. Also with us is Jeff Yang. He's a cultural critic and author of "The Golden Screen: The Movies That Made Asian America." Welcome back, Jeff.
JEFF YANG: Yes. Thank you, Glen. Glad to be here.
WELDON: Glad to have you. Four of "The Acolyte's" episodes have aired already, and we're going to be discussing all of them. So this is your official spoiler warning. "The Acolyte" is set about 100 years before the "Star Wars" prequel, and it's about two twin sisters, Osha and Mae. Both are played as an adult by Amandla Stenberg. They're raised by a coven of space witches who approach the Force much differently than the Jedi do. When Jedis come to the witches' planet to test the Force-sensitive twins, Osha is eager to join up, but Mae very much is not. Mae starts a fire that kills the coven and herself. At least, that's what the Jedi tell Osha when they take her away to be trained.
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AMANDLA STENBERG: (As Osha) She killed my family. She destroyed my life.
LEE JUNG-JAE: (As Master Sol) This is grief. Let it go.
WELDON: Years later, Osha has abandoned her training to make a life for herself as a space mechanic, but when powerful Jedis start getting picked off by the twin sister she had been told was dead, Osha and her old Jedi Master Sol reunite to investigate. Sol is played by "Squid Game's'" Lee Jung-jae.
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LEE: (As Master Sol) I wanted to save you both.
STENBERG: (As Osha) What happened that night wasn't your fault, Sol.
WELDON: Meanwhile, we see Mae being mentored on her journey of vengeance by a mysterious, masked Sith master. "The Acolyte" was created by Leslye Headland, who co-created the series "Russian Doll." It is streaming now on Disney+. Joelle, kick us off. What do you make of it?
MONIQUE: Oh, boy, Glen, back here with you talking about another "Star Wars" project - out here defending "Star Wars" with my fandom life. Oh, my God. OK.
WELDON: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: I - there's so much to enjoy about this show. I'm really, like, so many women are giving so many stellar performances. I love that we're in a different era of the Jedi - fabulous. Too frequently, I have to pause and go - what's the mystery here? - in a mystery show.
YANG: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: Confusing as hell, coming from a Leslye Headland who really knows how to weave fantastic narrative. As much as I feel some of the filmmaking has gotten back to a very classic "Star Wars" feel, which I value and appreciate - and by that, I mean, we have these very beautiful, detailed sets. We're really getting into costuming as a storytelling narrative. We're getting back to our basics of really creating these beautiful silhouettes to define characters. A lot of stuff that really makes "Star Wars" iconic.
WELDON: Sure.
MONIQUE: I also feel like we missed some really basic stuff that helps elevate. For example, in Episode 4, we spend a great deal of time in a forest with zero atmosphere. It doesn't look moist or wet or foggy or anything - an essential element of creating these atmospheres. And so, it's middling. And I'm really hoping that a great Headland twist awaits us in Episode 5 because there is a lot I am enjoying about the series as a whole.
WELDON: All right. Jeff, what about you?
YANG: You know, I have to say I echo a lot of what Joelle is talking about here. As I understand it, Headland described the concept for the show in its initial meeting as "Frozen" meets "Kill Bill," which Kennedy bought on the spot. I mean, like I would, too, sold in the room, right? It is a little weird that for a creator who's, like, really known for innovative narrative structure, sharp dialogue - I am just curious how she ended up putting something like this into the "Star Wars" universe with the flaws it has. I mean, it has some incredibly great performances that elevate it. The action Force-fu (ph) - right? - is - I mean, that is right down my strike zone. The tavern fight that opens this series is incredible. It was, like, literally staged to appeal to someone...
MONIQUE: Yes.
YANG: ...Who was enraptured by "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." And that, dear listener, is me (laughter).
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CARRIE-ANNE MOSS: (As Master Indara) Jedi do not attack the unarmed.
STENBERG: (As Mae) Yes, you do.
YANG: But there isn't, in some ways, enough of that. And there is a lot of kind of lugubrious, you know, sort of walking through various scenes and slogans essentially being talked about by masters, release your grief kind of stuff.
WELDON: Sure.
YANG: To that point, this is less aimed at people who are trying to unpack kind of this - the novelty of having a "Star Wars" story hold the wars...
WELDON: Yeah.
YANG: ...Than it is to kind of backfill history and, in some ways, inject characters into the cosmos that have not had the opportunity to exist before in kind of the pre-new "Star Wars" era.
WELDON: Sure. That's interesting. OK. It sounds like I'm a little bit more pro on this show than either of y'all. I mean, I think this is a good "Star Wars" show.
MONIQUE: Yes.
WELDON: I mean, as in good for a "Star Wars" show, you know?
YANG: (Laughter).
WELDON: 'Cause I have not been feeling "Ahsoka." I didn't feel "Boba Fett". "Obi-Wan," I thought was - didn't quite live up to it. Even "The Mandalorian," for me, is starting to tread water. I'm leaving "Andor" out of this discussion because "Andor" is not just a good "Star Wars" show, it is a good show. It's one of the best shows of the past five, 10 years. It's not really competing in the same weight class.
MONIQUE: No.
WELDON: It's not fair to compare them. But I like this crime procedural format. I like also seeing the Jedi as they were at this time, which, yes, they're a religious order. Yes, they're monks. They're space cops.
YANG: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: They're hella (ph) space cops, and they lean full-tilt into the cop of it all.
WELDON: Absolutely. And, you know, I like unpacking this practice of ripping kids away from their families just to indoctrinate them into a worldview.
MONIQUE: Excellent.
WELDON: And the other thing is that some fans seem to be really getting their noses bent out of shape about, is like, of course, if we take it as read that the Force is a real thing that exists in this universe, is an energy, whatever, then, of course, there's going to be other people who approach it differently than the Jedi do.
MONIQUE: Yes.
WELDON: Of course, they're going to see it as threads to pull. That only makes complete logical sense that different people are going to exploit this resource in different ways according to their needs.
YANG: Let's be honest. To a certain extent, all canon is ultimately toxic, right? There's a sense in which people become so just rigorous about trying to adhere to detail that they refuse to allow stories to develop and allow kind of the world to expand in ways that are inclusive, yes, but also just interesting, right?
MONIQUE: Yes.
YANG: And I feel like maybe, and there are probably going to be people who will drag me for this in the fandom, but the least interesting thing about "Star Wars" has always been the Skywalkers as, like, Space Jesus - right? - and...
WELDON: Yeah.
YANG: ...The Jedi as the heroes. There is a real strong sense of, in this series, kind of, like, all Jedi are bad, you know? Like, this pre-Sith, they're - the Jedi are kind of being revealed as both bureaucratic and a little bit skullduggerous (ph). And there is a real sense in which if you look at the "Star Wars" films and series all together, the Jedis have had a proud tradition of screwing up on this sort of pan-galactic scale.
WELDON: Sure.
YANG: "The Acolyte" kind of shows where that started.
WELDON: Yeah. And I think we need to just state this up front here because we're going to hear from people. But this whole notion that this show is unpacking the binary of light side versus dark side and introducing something - you know, a dusk side, a crepuscular...
YANG: (Laughter).
WELDON: ...Side of the Force. I mean, that's not new in this franchise.
MONIQUE: Not at all.
WELDON: If you go to the movies, yeah, it's new to the movies. But if you go to the comics and the novels, the animated series, this is something that's been explored before. If you go to the Wikipedia and look up Gray Jedi, you have just killed your afternoon.
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WELDON: But there is something that is fun to explore about the Jedi Order as rigid and sure of themselves, which means they're missing something. They're not seeing something. I think that's fun.
MONIQUE: And I love the idea of it starting when they have unchecked power, and they think of themselves as ultimate good to the point where they can storm into a religious ceremony and be like, hey, I got to check your kids and make sure that they're safe.
WELDON: (Laughter) Yep.
MONIQUE: And if they're not safe, they're coming with me, like, a crazy circumstance that, I think, has been a lot of fuel for interesting conversations about, you know, what does it mean to be a Jedi? What does it mean to be trained? What does it mean to never see your family again? I think these are valid critiques and explorations of something we've idolized since children ourselves.
You know, Leslye Headland has - she was at Star Wars Celebration - I want to say last year - I mean, sobbing in front of an audience talking about how "Star Wars" saved her life. "Star Wars" has been an absolutely, like, essential component of my life. And I think - you know, I just want to give her a lot of grace 'cause it's clear she's put so much of herself - I mean, her partner stars in the show. Like, she loves "Star Wars." She wants this to be great. And I think there's so much of what she has done has been a genuine joy. For example, the master-apprentice relationship between Sol and Jecki, who's played by Dafne Keen, who was X-23 in "Logan," which is the little girl that was with, you know, Hugh - I love that. It's the first time we've seen an actual monk Jedi leading a child through the difficulties of adolescence basically - so patient, so kind.
We see Jecki do a couple of fighting training stances. But truly, her education in the Force has been about tactics and logic almost exclusively. And that's also very exciting to see because it pains me to see children playing war games, you know? And I think that's something the "Star Wars" universe has been more interested in exploring going forward. So I think that by allowing these characters to come in here - like, Sol is such an interesting character, somebody who's - at his age - who's been in the Jedi Order for so long starting to question the Jedi - oh.
YANG: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: That's spicy stuff. That's really good. I just wish - and I think I would have come in - like, if we had reviewed after Episode 3, I think it would've been much higher...
WELDON: Yeah.
MONIQUE: ...Right? Like, I loved Episode 3. I thought it was fabulous. The things Jodie Turner-Smith did with Mother Aniseya that - every line was glorious.
WELDON: These are the space witches. Yep.
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JODIE TURNER-SMITH: (As Mother Aniseya) All living things are connected by the same thread, a thread woven through all of existence.
YANG: I totally hear you about the interesting elements of this. There's no question. You know, there's a lot here that hopefully you want to see develop more. Like, maybe the space witches come back. The space witches are cool, you know? I mean, look, I'm not a super fan. I'm not an antifan. I'm a crepuscular fan, a fan of the dusk, you know?
WELDON: (Laughter) Yep.
YANG: And to me, what has always been interesting has been the world-building of "Star Wars," the way it has kind of taken really conventional stuff - stuff that is all around us - kind of imbued it in different aspects of genres that also feel familiar in ways that feel fresh. When it's a murder mystery especially, you expect that to play out in such a way that there's more suspicion, more question about the nature of the crimes. And yes, this isn't really a - what happened? We see a lot of these killings happen on screen. It is much more of a whodunit or who behind whodunit. I feel a little bit - like, if you've watched Episode 4, there are only a few people who could be, you know...
WELDON: Yeah.
YANG: ...In the hot seat here behind the mask. And...
MONIQUE: Well, and you don't know enough for that to be engaging, right?
YANG: Yeah.
MONIQUE: Like, I feel like I've been really struggling with the mystery aspect. Like, obviously there's some things we don't know, but I don't think that makes a mystery, right? I need players on the board. I need to understand emotional stakes, which I really - other than Mae - the twins of, I want my sister back in my life - I don't really understand. Like, the Jedi has said, oh, well, we could get in trouble. But that's not tangible to me as a viewer yet. And - I don't know - is that paying for you? Are you enjoying the mystery? Does it work?
WELDON: Here's - I'm enjoying the mystery in theory because - OK, yes, look. We're going to learn in the coming episodes that the Jedi are unreliable narrators.
YANG: (Laughter).
WELDON: We kind of already knew that.
YANG: Yeah.
WELDON: We kind of suspected it. Here's why I'm liking the murder mystery aspect of this show. It's because I'm applying the "Law & Order" rule, which means if there is a name actor...
MONIQUE: (Laughter).
WELDON: ...Who is not doing too much in the opening five, six scenes, that's the guy.
MONIQUE: Oh, yeah.
WELDON: That's the murderer.
YANG: Or the gal, yeah (laughter).
WELDON: Well, in this case, you don't hire a Manny Jacinto - now, Manny Jacinto is playing Qimir, who's just this kind of smirky rogue that we've seen all over "Star Wars" all over the - all the time. He's got to be the Sith Lord, right? I mean, this - just make some predictions. I think he's the - yeah, I think he's the guy, or we're led to believe he's the guy.
YANG: I mean, there is a sense in which he's the only other freaking guy on the planet, you know? It's like...
WELDON: Yep.
YANG: ...Once they've dispensed with the Jedi Wookiee which - come on, Kelnacca.
WELDON: That's - we were promised a Jedi Wookiee.
YANG: We were promised a Jedi Wookiee (laughter).
WELDON: (Laughter) Yeah.
MONIQUE: We saw footage in the trailer. I'm hoping there is a flashback where we get to see him do more maybe...
YANG: Maybe.
MONIQUE: ...Fingers crossed.
YANG: (Laughter) But, you know, I do think that the way it's kind of setting up feels less structured like, you know, "Russian Doll" and more structured a bit like a "Scooby-Doo" episode, where...
WELDON: Sure.
YANG: ...You're kind of aiming at this, like, moment when the mask reveal - pulling it off - it's like, oh, it's going to be whomever.
MONIQUE: (Laughter).
YANG: And it's like, if it wasn't for you meddling Padawan, you know? It's like...
WELDON: Yep. Yep.
YANG: ...That's - if that actually happens, it'll be a little bit heartbreaking. We do expect, I think, more structure, more layers, maybe even just more suspense on a fundamental level going into this thing from the setup. And that's - I agree with Joelle - what it feels like we're missing in this particular mystery.
WELDON: Yeah. The "Kill Bill" aspect, right? So, in "Kill Bill," she goes after all these different people. We get enough time with them to set them up as individual characters. They feel - you know, they're not fully fleshed out, but they're caricatures. And so when they get taken out, it's like, oh, OK. This happened. I don't necessarily feel enough of these other Jedi - we mentioned the Wookiee Jedi head fake. We have to talk about the Carrie-Anne Moss head fake that the show does - sets her up in the opening episode as a Jedi master who gets taken out almost as soon as we see her in, like, 10 minutes, heavily featured in the promo materials, gets 10 minutes of screen time, turns up in flashbacks - yes. Headland has said, you know, that was always the idea - a rug-pull, right? So you - we see her, and we're like, oh, my God. That's Carrie-Anne Moss. And then she's taken out. But if that's the case, then you talk to your marketing team up front and say, maybe...
YANG: (Laughter).
WELDON: ...Don't promote the Carrie-Anne Moss of it all because it would be great if she just showed up, and we'd be surprised. And then she was taken out. You know what I mean?
YANG: Like "Scream," right?
WELDON: Like "Scream." Exactly.
YANG: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: I do think this is - she's such a fascinating character. I just wish I knew a little bit - like, what was she doing? Why was this space important?
WELDON: Yep.
MONIQUE: I feel like I'm missing out on great characters. They're so cool in theory, and they look good on screen. And yet, we're not really able to deliver on that in the end. And I think that's been a consistent frustration. And it's - what I've been really interested in hearing from fans are fans who are like, I just don't even have it in me to check it out. They're like, I just - I've been so defeated by what's come out of "Star Wars." I'm not there yet. And I'm extremely exhausted by the this-is-killing-"Star Wars" narrative every time something new...
WELDON: Sure.
MONIQUE: ...Comes out. I think that's foolish. But I do think there's a level of, I love this property, and I love being in this space, and I want to return to it. The way we're returning to it has just been so dissatisfying as a whole. I just have to wonder, like, what is the disconnect by the time that creator is working, you know, with Disney or Lucas or whatever to complete these things? Like, why is it that that's not able to happen, particularly when it's women? I hope this is a problem we can resolve. I really want women to be making more of tentpole nerd stuff. I still really value this space however much longer that might last (laughter). And I just...
WELDON: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: I would like them to be given fair chances to create really beautiful work. And it seems like something is prohibiting that from happening.
YANG: I think you can say the same thing obviously for inclusion of people of color - right? - especially on screen because you have this sort of weird effect with "Star Wars," where because they started in the far future of this universe, and we've kind of been working backwards in large part, it feels like all of a sudden you're mining history and saying, oh, wait. There were people of color. There were Asians. You know, there were Black people in the "Star Wars" universe. But something happened somewhere along the way. You know, there was some sort of disease that attacked melanin or something. And...
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YANG: ...By the time you get to the present day of the" Star Wars" universe, most of those folks are not around. And when you're working backwards like that and backfilling both in terms of inclusion behind and in front of the scenes, of course the people who are canon worshippers are going to feel weirded out. This is our world, you know, where we expect things to be a certain way, led by certain people who look a certain, you know, color and have a certain gender. And now here you are messing it all up by putting chips into our cookie. And it's a problem, I think, that predates Disney that Disney is trying to correct. But anything Disney was going to do in this regard, other than just keeping things exactly as they were, was going to generate criticism.
WELDON: Yeah, of course. I mean, it's the fallacy of the zero-sum game, where, like, anybody else gets something, that means that something is - must be taken away from me. Here's a question I have for you, though - both of you - because this is the thing that surprised me most about this series, given Leslye Headland's IMDb page. There's a relative lack of humor. I mean, tell me this is intentional. The creators of the series, you know, they're very - they're extremely online. They have to have seen all the memes and the TikToks about how there are no guardrails in the "Star Wars" universe. The Death Star has no guardrails, and they name a character Osha, right?
YANG: (Laughter).
MONIQUE: Yes.
WELDON: Occupational Safety and Health Administration...
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WELDON: ...The guardrail people, OK? OK. So there's a scene at the end of Episode 1, where Osha falls off a ledge, and Sol stops her with the Force by reaching out and shouting Osha.
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STENBERG: (As Osha) Please, Sol.
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STENBERG: (As Osha) Believe me. I didn't - oh.
LEE: (As Master Sol) Osha.
WELDON: What other work is that doing except being a bit, except being a gag? The only thing that could make it more obvious for me is the - if they didn't name her Mae, they named her sister Consumer Product Safety Commission...
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WELDON: ...Which they didn't do. I'm glad they didn't.
YANG: FDA (laughter). Yeah.
WELDON: That is so intentional, right? Am I crazy that you can't name a character Osha?
MONIQUE: Oh, gosh. OK. Just very quickly, Amandla - wow. I love watching her. She's such a strong performer. I think she's doing something really interesting here. Some people were suggesting - they were like, oh, she doesn't feel like two completely different characters. I disagree. And I like that they're both sort of in this gray space of, like - some folks think, oh, one twin is light-side coded, and the other one's dark-side coded. I think that's the twist here - that we're not doing distinct dichotomies, that there's capabilities in both. And they bring balance to each other - the two, the one, the many. I love what they're doing. I think she's amazing. And...
YANG: I hope she got paid twice.
MONIQUE: Right.
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MONIQUE: Yes, for each character, please. But this is the kind of show that...
YANG: Yeah.
MONIQUE: ...I hope gets a Season 2 because it's doing so many of the things I've asked "Star Wars" to do - so not just diversifying, which is lovely, but also exploring, like, the negative sides of the Jedi but also sort of bringing us really interesting Jedi. I love Sol. I think Lee Jung-jae's doing just really masterful work.
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LEE: (As Master Sol) Connect to the Force. Have faith.
MONIQUE: He learned English for this if you guys didn't know. Like, he is incredible. And the empathy that he possesses within that character and the torture that he's going through of somebody who's just devoted their whole life to a cause that he's now just really having to question, I mean, that stuff is good. It's really good. And so I hope we can continue to explore that going forward. I think that's the kind of stuff "Star Wars" has been missing. And so as frustrated I am with some parts of that, I don't want folks to leave this pod being like, it's not worth it, or it's a zero.
YANG: Right.
MONIQUE: There's so much to enjoy. I'm just continually frustrated because I know - all these people and all this potential and all this money, why can't we make it work? What's happening?
WELDON: (Laughter).
YANG: I just want to put a little note on the Lee Jung-jae performance. It is maybe the best performance I've ever seen by somebody who is very much not a native English speaker...
WELDON: Right.
YANG: ...In a show this large especially - right? - and doing a great job of bringing depth to this character and resonance to it and layers, right? There's this moment where they connect with each other, and then he breaks out in that smile - right? - that Lee Jung-jae smile that you remember from "Squid Game," you remember from other...
WELDON: You do.
YANG: ...Earlier stuff. And you realize, you know what? How often have I seen Jedi masters smile? Not often.
MONIQUE: Unless it's the cocky, swashbuckling kind.
YANG: Oh, well, yeah...
WELDON: Exactly.
YANG: ...The rakish smile.
MONIQUE: Yes (laughter).
YANG: Sure. But I do think that if we had seen these characters get more room to breathe and have a little bit less business around them - right? - we've got to have the umbramoth come out of nowhere and get slashed in half by a light saber, stuff like that, it would have been an elevated series 'cause the characters are so elevated, and the performance is so elevated.
I also feel like there's something really interesting about how, even though we've had this embedded in other aspects of "Star Wars" before, this really is a show that's focused on this idea that the light and the dark side might not be as apart as we think they are because so much of the Jedi mythos does feel borrowed from Christianity, for all intents and purposes, right?
There is this moment where we're in Kelnacca's quarters. And there's kind of a lingering zoom-in on what is quite obviously, you know, the Tao, the yin-yang symbols kind of in the background. And I'm like, oh, OK. Let's put a fine point on it. Let's just, like (laughter), underscore the fact that this is about...
WELDON: Yeah.
YANG: ...You know, the complementary sides of light and dark in this pair of twins, and each has a little of the other inside. OK. We get it now. So maybe a bit obvious but also something that I think underscores where this show can still take...
MONIQUE: Yes.
YANG: ...The idea of the Force and "Star Wars" in general in the next four episodes.
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WELDON: Well, you know, when we have a show we're kind of mixed on, it's not necessarily a really lively conversation like this one has been. Thank you for that. We want to know what you think about "The Acolyte." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Jeff Yang, Joelle Monique, thank you both for being here so much.
MONIQUE: Thank you, Glen.
YANG: Thank you, Glen.
WELDON: This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and edited by Mike Katzif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
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