Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
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AISHA HARRIS, HOST:
"Fancy Dance" offers something that's still all too rare on-screen - contemporary Indigenous perspectives front and center. The movie stars Lily Gladstone as a woman trying to keep it together under stressful circumstances. Her sister's gone missing, and she steps in to look after her young niece. When she's suddenly faced with the possibility of losing custody, the urgency to keep the family intact only grows stronger. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about "Fancy Dance" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
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HARRIS: Joining me today is Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, a producer for NPR's PLANET MONEY. Hey, Sam.
SAM YELLOWHORSE KESLER, BYLINE: Hi, Aisha.
HARRIS: And also with us is writer Shea Vassar. Welcome back, Shea.
SHEA VASSAR: (Non-English language spoken) and thanks for having me.
HARRIS: Yeah, it's great to have you both here. So, "Fancy Dance" stars Lily Gladstone as Jax, a woman living on the Seneca-Cayuga Reservation in Oklahoma. Since the recent disappearance of her sister, she's been taking care of her 13-year-old niece, Roki, full-time and helping her prepare for an upcoming powwow. Roki's played by Isabel DeRoy-Olson. Now, to make matters worse, Child Protective Services soon steps in and places Roki under the temporary custody of Jax's estranged dad, Frank. He's played by Shea Whigham.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FANCY DANCE")
ARIANNE MARTIN: (As Donna Marsh) I was hopeful that Roki could remain here in your care, but we ran your background check, and unfortunately, you do not meet the standards for foster placement. I had no choice but to find a more suitable situation.
LILY GLADSTONE: (As Jax) You can't do this. You can't do this. There's laws against taking Indian kids. You've got to put them with family first.
HARRIS: Jax, however, remains committed to getting Roki to the powwow and tracking down her sister. So she takes her niece along for what turns out to be a very rocky road trip and unique bonding experience. "Fancy Dance" is the directorial debut of Erica Tremblay. She co-wrote the screenplay with Miciana Alise, and it's streaming tomorrow on Apple TV+. So, Shea, I want to start with you. What are your initial impressions of this film?
VASSAR: So I enjoyed the film for what it was. I think it is a really interesting picture of Oklahoma, especially Native life in Oklahoma. Immediately upon watching it, I was like, oh, I've been in these houses. It was an environment I very much knew. And while I think overall it's great and has a lot of heart, I do think that there was a couple of things that just, like, took me out of the story. But overall, it's a good piece of independent cinema in a time where we don't really have a lot of independent cinema coming out because of our streaming wars. So "Fancy Dance" is something I'd recommend to anyone.
HARRIS: I definitely want to pull a little bit more on that thread of what you maybe got taken out of a little bit with this film. But Sam, I want to hear your thoughts as well first.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Pretty similar to Shea. I thought the movie had strong bones but was a little weak on execution. It has a really good plot. It's a really important plot. It was interesting. I felt emotionally drawn in. But there were just, like, some moments of acting that could have been a little bit better or some set design, some scenes that just took me out a little bit. I just could see that version of this film that was just a little stronger, but I would love to recommend this to anybody. It feels very much like all around appealing independent cinema, yes.
HARRIS: Yeah. I mean, I think I might have come down a little bit higher on this than both of you, but I think it's also because I've watched it twice now. The first time I saw it was at Sundance all the way back in January 2023. And it was this, you know, very small indie film that took about a year before it was picked up by Apple finally. But I - the second time around, I was able to sort of latch on to the story more. I think, you know, Shea, you're being happy that this is sort of independent cinema. I think this has sort of many of the trappings of independent cinema...
VASSAR: Sure.
HARRIS: ...Both good and sort of ham-fisted in a way. And this is also a first-time feature. So perhaps we're all kind of landing around this is that there's a lot of grace to be given.
It may not execute it quite as amazingly as we might have wanted, but I also think there's just something about all of those factors that make me really drawn to this film in a way. But, you know, Shea, can you talk a little bit more about what didn't quite work for you or...
VASSAR: Sure.
HARRIS: ...Things that just maybe stood out to you in that way?
VASSAR: Yeah, I mean, there was a couple of moments where I felt I was back in film school in the sense where there was, like, lighting that just, like, in the same scene would shift. It was just like, little, like, details and threads that just, like, kept taking me out. And I didn't want my attention to be away from the importance of the story because it is very realistic to what goes on in different Native communities. What you said about Grace, it's one of those things where, like, systematically, you know, both Erica and Miciana wrote an op-ed talking about, like the systematic issues of, like getting a Native film not only made but...
HARRIS: Yeah.
VASSAR: ...Bought. So it's, like, they're dealing with territory that, like, Native cinema doesn't get, which is, like, modern Indigenous stories. So I think it's, like, it's a double edged sword where it's, like, I do give it a lot more grace. But, yeah, it was just, like, the little details. Like, it's like the cherry on top just wasn't always there.
HARRIS: Yeah. I understand that.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: I'm a little jealous of you, Aisha, for getting to see this during the festival circuit, 'cause I could actually see this being a much better experience to see, like, sandwiched between...
VASSAR: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...Other films to see it, like, in a theater full of film lovers 'cause I also watched it twice. And on the second time, I did catch so many more of these details that just kind of showed how strong the story was. I wonder if this, like, script could have used, like, a second round of edits that just, like, kind of punches it up because there were things that just kind of could have been bolstered a little bit that I saw peeking out on the second watch that I guess I just didn't pick up on in the first time. Things like establishing more of their relationship between Lily Gladstone's character and her niece.
VASSAR: Roki, yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Also, just like there were moments where Lily Gladstone is not in the scene, and you kind of build out a little bit more the world that this is set in, in the reservation. And I thought that was just wonderful. And I was like, you know, maybe we could have spent more time there, or maybe we could have seen that play a little bit stronger into the finished product.
HARRIS: What seems to be sort of, I think we're struggling with, is just this idea of, like, how much of it is, like, creative choice versus just the money, the financials of it dictating that.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Yeah.
VASSAR: Completely.
HARRIS: And, you know, Shea, you mentioned how they sort of talked about how hard it was to get this released. And Lily Gladstone herself was very much at the forefront while she was doing her publicity tour for "Killers Of The Flower Moon," using that opportunity to say, like, this movie still doesn't have a release, and this is a movie that's by Indigenous people and is centering those voices. And, you know, I think a lot of people are going to go into this and having "Killers" so sort of closely in the rearview mirror.
And I'm curious how you feel this role and the performance stacks up when you compare it to something like "Killers Of The Flower Moon." Like, does this feel juicier, more meaningful in any way? Because that was one of the biggest issues I think a lot of us had with "Killers Of The Flower Moon" is that she's centered at first, and then the Indigenous perspective kind of recedes throughout the rest of the film. And I'm wondering, maybe it's unfair to compare, but I think because of the closeness and the fact that these two are very much linked by the same star.
VASSAR: People are going to do it.
HARRIS: You can't help it.
VASSAR: Yeah.
HARRIS: Like, what do you make of that?
VASSAR: I don't think I've ever seen Lily Gladstone on screen not give it, like, their complete all. I think...
HARRIS: Yeah.
VASSAR: ...Lily is so good at acting that it's so great to see these moments in both films where it's, like, maybe she should have been given more. And I think each film has opposite issues if that makes sense. So I think "Killers Of The Flower Moon" had such a big budget, but we didn't get enough Lily Gladstone in the film. This film, it feels like, again, it's like, I just wanted more, just, like, moments of softness, too, because we see Jax being very tough and scheming and constantly have to be, like, the mastermind of what's going on.
And honestly, one of my favorite moments, and it's not just because it's Pride Month, and it's not just because it's super fun to see a modern, queer, Native woman, but it's, like, when she's in the strip club with Sapphire...
HARRIS: Yeah.
VASSAR: ...And they, like, have this moment. It's very - it's just every day, like, this seems like something that Jax would come and do often, which is nice. Like...
HARRIS: Yeah.
VASSAR: ...I loved that moment. I think that's just what I was craving a little bit more of.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Yeah, just to the question of, like, comparisons to "Killers Of The Flower Moon." Like, I don't think it's, like, a but/or kind of conversation. I think it's like a yes/and. Like, I'm definitely just very excited that both of these movies exist and that, like, there's even, like, these kinds of options to see, like an actress like Lily Gladstone, you know, in two different - completely different films, and like, a lot of the gaps that were missing from "Killers Of The Flower Moon," particularly, like, my kind of pet peeve of, like, centering Native voices, but only in stories that feel historical and that kind of give the implication, like, they existed long ago only.
Having something like this that feels definitely a lot more modern, and I did, you know, feel, like, a little bit hesitation with centering that modern voice, but then having it be so crime-ridden, so featuring, like, mentions of alcoholism and a lot of family drama in a way that I was like, well, I don't exactly love that, but, you know, that is a reality for so many Native people that it gave me pause, but that did not stop me from enjoying the film or was not my biggest issue.
HARRIS: I also want to ask you a bit about just the way that the powwow and just Indigenous life in a contemporary lens is depicted here. There's one scene I think that kind of stood out to all of us. And Shea, I think you mentioned it before we were taping. Do you want to describe that scene?
VASSAR: Sure. So when we first meet Roki's grandparents, we also meet her, like, step-grandma, played by Audrey Wasilewski, who is interested in what Roki is making, but she calls her regalia a costume.
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AUDREY WASILEWSKI: (As Nancy) What kind of costume are you working up?
ISABEL DEROY-OLSON: (As Roki) It's not really a costume.
SHEA WHIGHAM: (As Frank) It's called regalia, babe. Tawi and Roki, they dancing. They powwow in Oklahoma City every year. They are the reigning mother-daughter champs.
WASILEWSKI: (As Nancy) That is great. I used to do a bit of theater myself back in high school.
VASSAR: I thought this moment was so important for so many reasons. I mean, for me, it was very relatable because I have a very specific experience as, like, a Native woman who was raised by my biological father, who's white, and then his second wife who adopted me. So I was raised by white people. And these kind of, like, subtle misunderstandings of, like, why you do something are so poignant. I don't even want to call them microaggressions because the intention is good, but it's, like, it is. It is, like, a microaggression...
HARRIS: Yeah.
VASSAR: ...And a further erasure of just, like, the importance of, like, why you do certain things. And I thought that the step-grandmother, is so relatable to just, like, any kind of, like, white woman I would meet in Oklahoma. You know, there's so many well-intentioned people, but they don't really take the time to really understand, so they make these assumptions.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: I was also fascinated by the step-grandma character 'cause, yeah, she clearly, like, doesn't get it (laughter).
VASSAR: Yeah (laughter).
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: But she wants to. Like, the first two times that we see her, she clearly, like, wants to form a relationship with Roki and is trying, but just it's so - it feels so foreign to her in a sense. I was kind of actually wanting to see more of her trying to understand feed into her decision-making process. But instead, it just - she just kind of gets, like, meshed into the plot. And we don't see that...
VASSAR: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...Kind of growth. 'Cause it did feel, like, realer to me than just simply, like, evil step-grandma who wants to, like, erase her indigenity. It was just...
VASSAR: Exactly.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...That she doesn't...
HARRIS: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...Really understand. And this is, like, the kind of thing where it's, like, these relationships I wish were a little bit more built out. And there would be characters in this, like, I have to shout out Shea Whigham as Frank. I have to assume Shea's namesake.
VASSAR: Hey.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Yeah.
HARRIS: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: And Ryan Begay as JJ, too. Just, like, these, like, relatively small roles that had these kind of, like, I guess, heavy hitters.
HARRIS: I will say, like, the one thing that I do, even though we don't necessarily get all of these relationships built out together, I do think that the Jax character and Roki characters are very complicated. They do things that, at times, I was like, oh, my goodness, what are we - what are you doing? You're just going to dig a deeper hole. And, I don't know, it felt in some ways, like, it reminded me of, like, "The Bicycle Thief" or something. It's just, like, there's desperation, and then there's also just, like, making choices that, like, you've got to try to do better. But I think I like that. I like having these protagonists who they do things that we know are probably not the best things. And I think it's important to have those complicated characters, so...
VASSAR: Completely. 'Cause when you're in those tough moments, you don't know how to make correct decisions.
HARRIS: Exactly.
VASSAR: You just are acting on instinct, and instinct is not ready for this stuff.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: A lot of the stuff that Jax does truly baffles me, but I think that that's great because it shows that she's, like, not the most equipped for any of this. I think she was definitely, like, put in a tough place, but also had some bad habits as well, and - but good intentions in the end.
HARRIS: Totally. Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: I also just wanted to say that, like, this was, as Shea pointed out, like, this was a movie about a really important and dire topic, the epidemic of missing and murdered Indigenous women. Even though that was the pretense for the entire film, it did not feel, yeah, like, it was a movie that was really centered on trauma. It didn't feel preachy. And there were just, like, so many, like, realistic moments like that, like Child Protective Services taking Roki away, or, you know, the whole movie Jax is pushing for the FBI to really make an effort in looking for her sister 'cause it just goes to show how little these different government agencies are in communication with each other.
VASSAR: Exactly.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: And that's, like, really the reality...
HARRIS: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...Of these circumstances is that they don't communicate with each other, and there's just so much Swiss cheese all over all of these government agencies that...
VASSAR: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...These cases fall into.
VASSAR: We have family members that go missing or are murdered, and then we have to deal with all the red tape. And so I loved being able to see that on screen, even though, yeah, it's like, it sucks. These are not, like, good systems that exist, and they're in horrible relationship with each other, but it's realistic.
HARRIS: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Yeah. The messiness...
HARRIS: Yeah.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: ...Is very well depicted here.
VASSAR: I guess the last thing I might say is that it's hard to explain as, like, a Native woman who has been trying to get my own film and, like, you know, narrative projects off the ground. It's, like, incredible that Erica has been able to jump these barriers and continue to believe in her own projects like this because we don't have a roadmap as Native women creators. And it's hard. It's hard to navigate out here trying to pitch and believe in your stories when it's, like, we're still being told there's not an audience, or there's not actors that can play the characters you're creating. And that's a lie. And I think "Fancy Dance" is proof of that. It's, like, seeing even someone like Isabel in that role of Roki, I mean, just that moment where she steals the candy necklace and puts it on and starts eating it. And then she has it on in different scenes. Like...
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Yeah (laughter).
VASSAR: ...That was such a little, like, touchstone of innocence because I remember as a kid - right? - like, eating the candy necklace. And it's, like, I do really appreciate that, like, we get this film and that it is kind of a little bit of a foil to "Killers Of The Flower Moon," which was only about trauma. And while this was obviously very traumatic, it more centered the strength of family relationship and bond. And so I'm, like, yeah, we've got to talk about the stuff we didn't like, but there was also a lot to like and to appreciate. And I can't wait to see what Erica and Miciana, like, do next.
HARRIS: Well, this was really great to chat with you both about it. Obviously, we had our critiques, but we also really enjoyed it. And I think we would all agree that people should definitely see this movie. We want to know what you think about "Fancy Dance." Find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Sam Yellowhorse Kesler and Shea Vassar, thank you so much for being here. This was a pleasure.
YELLOWHORSE KESLER: Thank you. It's been great.
VASSAR: Yeah, thanks for having me back.
HARRIS: This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Mike Katzif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
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