Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
LINDA HOLMES, HOST:
"The Bear" is still one of the most stressful and most interesting shows on TV. Carmy and Sydney are launching their new fine dining restaurant, but he's estranged from some of the people who are closest to him just as he sneaks up on a new level of success. I'm Linda Holmes, and today on NPR's POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR, we're talking about the new season of "The Bear."
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HOLMES: Joining me today is Greta Johnsen. She writes the Gretagram newsletter on Substack and co-hosts "The Official Game Of Thrones Podcast: House Of The Dragon." Welcome back, Greta.
GRETA JOHNSEN: Hi, Linda. Happy to be here.
HOLMES: I am so happy to talk to you. And also with us is Ronald Young Jr. He is the host of the film and television review podcast "Leaving The Theater" and the podcast "Weight For It." Hello, Ronald.
RONALD YOUNG JR: Heard, Chef.
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
HOLMES: Absolutely. So we have a lot to talk about. We will be getting, by the way, into the whole season. So this is your spoiler warning. I know that many of you binged it as soon as it dropped. So there you go.
YOUNG: (Laughter).
HOLMES: This season picks up with chefs Carmy and Sydney opening their fine dining restaurant. They are played by Jeremy Allen White and Ayo Edebiri.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
AYO EDEBIRI: (As Sydney Adamu) You redid everything.
JEREMY ALLEN WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) Yeah, well, I subtracted, and I pushed.
EDEBIRI: (As Sydney Adamu) OK, you want to spell out for me what exactly you subtracted and what exactly you pushed?
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) Syd, we're going to get a star.
HOLMES: Carmy's so-called cousin, Richie, now runs the front of house. He's played by Ebon Moss-Bachrach.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
EBON MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richard Jerimovich) A willingness to accommodate dietary restrictions. That's not on the list. That's important. Joy, just in general. These are very actionable. These are very easy.
HOLMES: Abby Elliott is also back as Carmy's sister, Sugar. She runs the business side and is preparing to give birth.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
ABBY ELLIOTT: (As Natalie Berzatto) I'm going to have a kid in two months. I wish I could just push a button and get the baggage put away.
HOLMES: This season also continues to follow beloved members of the kitchen staff, including pastry chef Marcus played by Lionel Boyce. He is grieving the death of his mother.
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LIONEL BOYCE: (As Marcus Brooks) We ate dinner together a lot. I like just being in the kitchen, just kind of watching her make dinner.
HOLMES: And it wouldn't be a season of "The Bear" without some notable guest stars, which I'm sure we'll get to. The entire new season is streaming on Hulu. So let's get to it. Ronald, I want to know what you thought about the third season of "The Bear."
YOUNG: I thought it was really good. I watched it in rhythm with the other two, meaning that I went back and restarted the first, and then the second then went straight into the third.
JOHNSEN: How much sleep did you get last night, Ronald? (Laughter).
YOUNG: Not much. About three hours, but I've seen it all. And I really enjoyed it. I think this was a very contemplative season. What it did was it filled in a lot of the gaps of stories that we thought we knew by showing them the details, and it did a lot of character development. Now, sequencing I don't think was perfect. And Linda, I know you hate non-linear storytelling, so I'm very curious to see how you felt about this going from, you know, point A to point Z...
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: ...Then back to point H and back and forth. But overall, it is the show that we know and love, and it continues to be a great television show.
HOLMES: Yeah. All right, Greta, how about you? What'd you think?
JOHNSEN: I will say I generally agree with what Ronald is saying. I do kind of feel like "The Bear" tries to be maybe three different shows, and I'm not sure that...
HOLMES: At least.
JOHNSEN: ...Always works, right?
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: I think the thing I was most frustrated with in this season is how stagnant Carmen is. And I understand that that is perhaps a necessity of his own character, but I think the story suffered for it. What do you think, Linda?
HOLMES: So one of the things that you discover, if you watch this season, is that after 10 episodes, you hit a screen that says to be continued. And they don't resolve really any of the main stories of the season. And that goes for specific plot point-type things. You don't find out whether Sydney is going to take this new job that she's been offered. You don't find out what the review says that Carmy has been waiting for and finally sees in the closing seconds of the season. But you also don't get resolution to the emotional arcs of, you know, Carmy's relationship with Claire, who is played by Molly Gordon, who he's still obsessed with for some reason.
YOUNG: Agreed, Linda (laughter).
HOLMES: But Carmy also does not really deal with Richie. And at the end of the second season, you know, I think there was a lot of remembering that Carmy had kind of broken up with Claire somewhat accidentally at the end of the second season, but less maybe if people remembering that he had had this incredibly vicious screaming match with Richie that really caused them to be estranged. So they really didn't resolve anything, which, for me, I think is OK, except that it's frustrating, in the way that Greta is saying.
What you see in these 10 episodes is the part where Carmy is stuck and where the pressure is increasing in a lot of ways on him. But what you're not seeing is, you know, where he goes from being stuck. And so I think structurally, as a creative decision, to leave it in this place, I don't think it makes it any less of a good show. But I think from a strategic perspective, particularly if they're going to wait another year to show another season, I do think that's a somewhat questionable choice. And I have other, you know, smaller, more specific beefs, I think.
JOHNSEN: Good word choice there, Linda.
HOLMES: But overall, I mean, listen, they still can really pull off an episode.
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: The episode that's called "Napkins," which was directed by Ayo Edebiri...
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: Yes.
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Which follows Tina...
YOUNG: That's a standout.
HOLMES: ...Is really, I think, a wonderful episode.
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: There's an episode with Nat and her mom, which I think is a terrific episode.
YOUNG: Another standout, yeah.
HOLMES: They still...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Know what they're doing a lot.
JOHNSEN: Yeah, I mean, all of the performances are outstanding.
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: Like, everyone...
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...Is spot on. I am, like, so annoyed by how much I love Richie. His character evolution, especially over the course of Season 2 into this season...
YOUNG: So good.
JOHNSEN: ...Is amazing..
YOUNG: Yes. What a journey.
JOHNSEN: That clip you...
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: ...Played earlier, Linda. There's a moment right after that where he lists another non-negotiable, which is an environment that embraces and encourages razzle-dazzle and then dream weave. I love it. I mean, that's so much fun.
HOLMES: And he is right about a lot of the things that he wants...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: ...To include.
JOHNSEN: Totally.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: He is a...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Born...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Service guy and he...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Understands how service should work.
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
YOUNG: But I also think that that's such a good study and good character development.
JOHNSEN: Yes.
YOUNG: Like...
JOHNSEN: Totally.
YOUNG: ...Specifically, because they peel back enough layers...
JOHNSEN: Yep.
YOUNG: ...That on the surface, you're like, this is just some toxic white dude just out there.
JOHNSEN: Right.
YOUNG: And then you peel it back, and you're like, oh, he's sad. And then you peel it back further, you're like, oh, he wants to do well. He doesn't want to fail.
JOHNSEN: Yeah, he hates himself. He needs to learn, you know?
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: Yeah. It's amazing.
YOUNG: Yeah. There was also, in this season, we get a lot more of Uncle Jimmy, the main investor in the restaurant.
HOLMES: Right. Oliver Platt is Uncle Jimmy.
YOUNG: Yeah. And I feel like he had a couple of good laugh lines this season, including the early one where he's going back and forth about how much money they're spending...
JOHNSEN: Oh, yeah.
YOUNG: ...And they start talking about butter.
JOHNSEN: The butter.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) It's Orwellian.
OLIVER PLATT: (As Jimmy Kalinowski) It's dystopian butter?
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) What?
PLATT: (As Jimmy Kalinowski) What are you talking about?
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) No, no, no, no. Orwell, Vt.
PLATT: (As Jimmy Kalinowski) Orwell, Vt.
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) Yes.
PLATT: (As Jimmy Kalinowski) Of course.
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
YOUNG: It's lines like that, that I think also show tried to be several things where...
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: ...There are these really fast dialogue-heavy, like, back-and-forth sessions that work when it's, like, Season 1, 20-minute, one-take episode of just chaos in the kitchen. Episode 2 of this season, Season 3, when they're all showing up to work and then talking around the big island in the kitchen, and all of them are having different issues, and Richie and Carmy are bickering, all of that. It works in those parts when it's the ensemble in the kitchen doing stuff. But sometimes, they just take the facts off to an island to have them have some really lightning-fast back-and-forth dialogue. And I'm just like, I love Matty Matheson...
JOHNSEN: Me too.
YOUNG: ...But this isn't his show (laughter), you know?
HOLMES: They got a little carried away with the facts, I think, most centrally. Neil, the kind of fix-it guy who's become a server this season.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: And then his family, which we have increasingly met more and more and more of, that kind of became to me a little too distracting and a bit of a clanging tonal issue with this much more contemplative season. And, look, it's always been a mix. And I think this is a thing that we've sometimes discussed on this show as the issue of you don't want to eat a bowl of cilantro.
(LAUGHTER)
YOUNG: Yes. Well, that's great. Yes.
HOLMES: Some things are flavors, but they are not necessarily the whole thing. And I think...
YOUNG: Yes. Yes.
HOLMES: ...That - not Matty Matheson as a person or an actor or whatever, but Neil as a character is, for me, a flavor, but not...
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
HOLMES: ...Necessarily a thing I want a whole scene that's just Neil. You know, there's this moment where they introduce more and more Faks, and then...
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
HOLMES: ...One of them turns out to be John Cena.
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: Beautiful.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) I appreciate it. Sammy, what are you doing here?
JOHN CENA: (As Sammy Fak) Oh, these lemonades need more horsepower, so they called a horse.
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) Well, make it shine, yeah?
CENA: (As Sammy Fak) Shine it will.
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) Thank you.
HOLMES: It's the first piece of casting on this show that, to me, has felt too distracting.
YOUNG: I actually agree with that.
JOHNSEN: Like, what a beautiful Fak.
YOUNG: I agree with that.
JOHNSEN: This does not track (laughter).
HOLMES: It has felt stunty, which I defended. The whole "Fishes" episode last season where you had, you know, Sarah Paulson and John Mulaney and Jamie Lee Curtis...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: ...And Bob Odenkirk...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...I said, listen, I think that makes sense in the context of that episode. This felt, to me, a little bit like, hey, we got John Cena. Didn't think it worked super well.
YOUNG: It seemed like he was available and maybe a fan of the show.
HOLMES: Totally.
YOUNG: Like, he shows up. And I said, he just doesn't match...
HOLMES: No.
YOUNG: ...The other Faks.
JOHNSEN: We have a shape (laughter).
YOUNG: Yeah. Exactly.
JOHNSEN: Yeah, totally. So Linda, I would love to hear, when it comes to some of the flashbacks, like, what your thoughts were about those in particular. I thought some were a lot more effective than others. And I was...
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...Delighted by how much I love Mikey. I think that's, like, really poignant, given the fact that, especially with this season, grief is such a powerful throughline. But I found a lot of, like, Carmy's kitchen flashbacks especially to just feel extra wasted space. What was your take on that?
HOLMES: So I do think that the scene that they had in "Napkins" between Tina and Mikey, who is Carmy's brother, who owned the restaurant before he died - Mikey is played by Jon Bernthal - and that scene, to me, is the best scene they've done that explains Mikey and that explains...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Who he was and why people loved him so much, especially Tina.
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: You got that in - for example, all the way back to the first season - Tina's resistance to Carmy. You got her love of Mikey. But here, you really see where it came from and how it started.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
LIZA COLON-ZAYAS: (As Tina Marrero) I don't need to be inspired. I don't need to be impassioned. I don't need to make magic. I don't need to save the world, you know? I just want to feed my kid, you know?
HOLMES: I love Liza Colon-Zayas, who plays Tina. That's a...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Fantastic performance. I'm always happy to see her.
JOHNSEN: Amazing.
HOLMES: And I think also there's this fascinating sense that Mikey was not passionate about the restaurant the way that Carmy is. He just was doing it because it was the family restaurant, and so he took it over. But he didn't have that sense of, like, this is all I've ever wanted to do.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
JON BERNTHAL: (As Michael Berzatto) If you really consider, you know, like, the special moments, you know, of your life - like celebrations, good times, you know, cheer - I feel like, yeah, they always happen around food, you know?
COLON-ZAYAS: (As Tina Marrero) You believe that?
BERNTHAL: (As Michael Berzatto) I think I am starting to.
HOLMES: In terms of the flashbacks - and, you know, Ronald mentioned my resistance to nonlinear storytelling, which is true...
YOUNG: (Laughter).
HOLMES: ...In this case...
YOUNG: It's documented.
HOLMES: ...Once I...
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
HOLMES: Yeah. Once I watched it, you know, especially the first episode, which is really a tour of all the kitchens that Carmy has worked in more than anything else, do I think it gets a little excessive, which - like, I don't need a cameo from every famous chef in the world?
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
HOLMES: I did ultimately value it. And the reason was that eventually, to me, what this season turned out to be about was this kind of creativity, brilliance, toxicity...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Triangle that is so much a part of conversations that we have about so many fields - acting and directing and making television and film. You know, that's what I think this season ends up being about is this battle for Carmy between, am I going to be a happy ghost in Sydney's life someday, like Terry is for him, or am I going to be a Joel McHale ghost?
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: What I said when I reviewed this is, like, this, to me, is a show that is constantly about scars and ghosts because it's a show that's about consequences and grief...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Right?
JOHNSEN: Yeah. That's a good way of putting it.
YOUNG: Do y'all think that's why they spent so much time with the Faks talking about haunting?
HOLMES: Yes.
YOUNG: 'Cause they keep talking about this haunting thing that happens, which is when John Cena shows up, and he has some sort of interaction with one of the Faks.
JOHNSEN: (Laughter).
YOUNG: And then says he's going to haunt him, which just really means, I'm just going to harass him.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
RICKY STAFFIERI: (As Theodore Fak) What is haunting?
CENA: (Sammy Fak) It means I'll remember he took SD cards without permission. And someday, when he least expects it, I'll do something weird.
MATTY MATHESON: (As Neil Fak) Richie, put that there.
YOUNG: And I remember watching that scene and just being like, they keep talking about this several scenes later. John Cena's not even in it anymore. And now - you're absolutely right - the haunting is occurring. It's also alluding to what's happening between the other chefs, which kind of makes it a little bit better for me.
HOLMES: Yeah. And it's always a show about ghosts, but not all the...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Ghosts are dead, right?
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: That's the trick.
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
HOLMES: But, like, think about how Donna, Carmy and Nat's mother, operates...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...As a ghost in their life - right?...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...And how she shows up when Nat is about to give birth. And that's not necessarily the person that Nat wanted, but her mother sort of hovers over her life in this very specific way.
JOHNSEN: Yeah, especially the trauma ghosts (laughter).
YOUNG: It seems like they're all trauma ghosts at some point.
HOLMES: Absolutely. And, I mean, they start the season with Carmy staring at this big scar on his hand. I do want to make sure that we touch on some of the other characters. This was an interesting Sydney season for me.
YOUNG: Yeah. I do...
HOLMES: Because her performance in this season is quite small most of the time.
YOUNG: Yes. We didn't get a lot of Sydney. Like, we got overarching Sydney. Like, there was this big decision that Sydney has to make. In the first two seasons, we get a lot more actual Sydney in our faces. And in this one, I felt like they filled that time with more from other people - just kind of giving us more backstory from other people, which wasn't always bad, but we're getting, like, less of actual Sydney...
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: ...Interacting stuff by herself. And I think they think they did it service because she was leaded to this big decision. But it didn't feel like they were actually giving us her, as a character, as much as I think they thought they were, I would say.
JOHNSEN: That's interesting. The thing that I kept waiting for was to - for Sydney to call Carmen out and to be like, dude, this is no longer a creative partnership. You're walking all over this.
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: My fingerprints are not on this menu at all. What the hell are we even doing here?
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) Your cook was excellent, by the way.
EDEBIRI: (As Sydney Adamu) Thank you for saying that, but you still changed all my [expletive].
WHITE: (As Carmen Berzatto) It's our [expletive]. And it's just some adjusting of the plating. The scallop is perfect. We don't need the six other fishes.
JOHNSEN: And I do think that some of the restraint is her worrying and also just sort of, like, backing up and zooming out and being like, do I need to just get the hell - like, is it even worth calling him...
HOLMES: Right.
JOHNSEN: ...Out or...
HOLMES: Right.
JOHNSEN: ...Do I just need to get...
HOLMES: Right.
JOHNSEN: ...The hell out of here?
HOLMES: Right.
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: I hear what you're saying, but I guess, for me, I think it tracked with the character and what she's going through. I mean, it was...
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...Still frustrating just because, like, they certainly have had very tense conversations before. And I will say, I think that dynamic is one of my favorite things about this show - the fact...
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: ...That we're seeing a creative partnership that I hope to God never becomes romantic and really is just about...
YOUNG: Oof.
JOHNSEN: ...The intimacy and vulnerability and trust of working really closely with someone you admire and respect. But I think she's admiring and respecting him less, and then what do you do with that? - is, like, a very real question that I do look forward to seeing the answer in with the next season.
HOLMES: I think it's so moving, to me, she has such frustration with him and such anger at him and also such resentment of how he treats her and how he treats her talent. But at the same time, she both admires him as a professional, she also cares about him as a person, and I think thinks that some part of him is a good-hearted person. But she also feels an obligation to her workplace and to the other people who work there. And that's why I think she's so kind of frozen in place by this idea of signing this partnership agreement and actually becoming a part owner.
JOHNSEN: I thought the scene right at the end was really interesting at the, quote-unquote, "funeral forever." When Sydney is in the kitchen with Luca...
YOUNG: Oh, yes.
JOHNSEN: ...And he's talking about his sibling and what it's like to kind of, like, live through a traumatic childhood and at least have someone where you can kind of look at and be like, this is not good, right? And he kind of pushes her to ask, like, who do you have like that in your life if you don't have any siblings? And she gets called out of the room right as I imagine she's about to realize that it is Carmen. At least, that was how I read that scene was was, like, you know, they do see each other every day.
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: They do trust each other so much. And yet...
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...He's also extremely frustrating.
HOLMES: Yeah.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: You know, Luca, who's played by Will Poulter, made reference to the fact that he's going to be hanging around in town for a while. And I thought, as much as I don't want Sydney to date Carmy...
JOHNSEN: Right.
HOLMES: ...I would go for that. That scene...
JOHNSEN: A thousand percent.
HOLMES: ...I was like, this chemistry...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Is rad. I would...
JOHNSEN: Totally.
HOLMES: ...Absolutely go for this chemistry between these two people...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: ...For sure.
JOHNSEN: Yes, please.
HOLMES: And I think that Abby Elliott, who plays Sugar or Nat, is somebody who, you know, when she was on "SNL," I don't know that anybody really anticipated this level of performance from her. But that episode with Donna, who's played by Jamie Lee Curtis, there's a wonderful, late moment when Sugar's husband, Pete, finally shows up at the hospital. And you have this thought like, maybe what they're going to do is she's going to be like, well, OK, I'm happy to see Pete, but really, like, I'm so happy that I spent this time with my mom. But she just...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...Lights up from inside when Pete gets there, and I loved that...
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: ...They were true to that 'cause I think that is what would really happen. Greta, what did you think?
JOHNSEN: It's an outstanding performance. The thing I kept worrying about throughout that entire episode, and I'm curious if you all thought this too, was, like, I kept worrying that Donna was going to make, like, a horrible mean turn and that, like, it was going to go bad...
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...Because it does feel like that's inevitably what happens when she shows up, right?
YOUNG: I thought that, too, but I remember thinking they're trying to show progression in this character...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
YOUNG: ...Because every time we've seen her, she's been still anxious, but it seems like she's turned a few pages from crashing her car into the house. So it felt like it could go left...
JOHNSEN: Yes.
YOUNG: ...Real fast, but it didn't...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
YOUNG: ...And I felt good about that.
JOHNSEN: I think also you can tell in that scene how desperately Nat wants to just have a sweet, loving relationship with her mother, which is...
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: ...Heartbreaking and beautiful at the same time, I think. They just captured that beautifully.
YOUNG: Yes.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE BEAR")
ELLIOTT: (As Natalie Berzatto) I just don't want her to feel the way that I felt.
JAMIE LEE CURTIS: (As Donna Berzatto) Oh, she won't.
ELLIOTT: (As Natalie Berzatto) You don't know that.
CURTIS: (As Donna Berzatto) Oh, I do. I do. I do.
HOLMES: And we haven't talked very much yet about Lionel Boyce, who is playing Marcus as Marcus is dealing...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...With the death of his mother at the end of the previous season. And just has such a quiet, smaller, but really beautiful performance, as, you know, Marcus is always this guy who is, like, thinking about beautiful things. And there's this part where he gets fascinated by magic.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: Oh, my gosh, I also love that performance just so, so much.
YOUNG: I think the thing that I like the most about Lionel Boyce's performance, it's written well, and the interactions with grief are done really well. I think he's saying and doing things that I would 100% expect from someone who had just lost their mother recently. But also, Lionel Boyce never seems like he's acting. If they just told me they found a pastry chef, and they just put him into the show, I would 100% believe it.
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: Yes.
HOLMES: And before we go, I do want to address something that Ronald sort of addressed to me under my breath, which is I am not a Claire person. I personally felt that Claire, played by Molly Gordon, who is an actress I really like, who I think is not...
JOHNSEN: She's wonderful.
HOLMES: ..Responsible for the failures of this character, I felt like this character was underwritten in Season 2...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Severely. The only...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Personality characteristic she had was that she was really into Carmy. And...
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: ...Then they had her do this thing where, like, look, I'm sorry, I know her feelings are hurt because she overheard him through the door of the walk-in. But she insisted on going back into the kitchen when they told her not to.
YOUNG: Yes.
HOLMES: If there exists a right person for Carmy, it is not somebody who doesn't understand that when he's having his friends and family night, you are going to just go, eat the food, go home, talk to him later.
YOUNG: Yes.
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
HOLMES: I feel for her, but also, I don't care about Claire.
YOUNG: Yeah. It feels like a love story that they feel like they need to have. Like, there's enough tension in the kitchen that you don't necessarily...
JOHNSEN: Yeah.
YOUNG: ...Need this character. But if you are going to have this character, please fully develop them.
JOHNSEN: Well, I like Claire the most out of the three of us, I can say.
YOUNG: (Laughter).
JOHNSEN: I totally hear what y'all are saying. And I thought the flashbacks of their relationship in Season 3 really didn't work because...
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...I feel like there is an unearned quality to the intimacy that they had because we're only seeing it in retrospect that I don't think that quite worked. What I will say about the romance in general, I thought there was a real sweetness to it initially that I liked. I also think, especially for Carmen, he also needs to figure out how to live a life and be able to trust other humans and enjoy things like loving and being loved. And I do think that is an important plot point for him. And I think we did see that in Season 2 a little bit with his tension around Sydney, when he, like, starts blowing her off because he has this relationship. I do think that's actually a pretty interesting dynamic, but I totally hear you, they're not doing it enough justice...
HOLMES: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: ...For sure.
HOLMES: Yeah. Listen, as I said, when you get to the end of the season, there's a lot that's unresolved, including that Carmy is getting some kind of review of the restaurant, which, if you want to go to npr.org, you can find a piece that I wrote, which is rather ridiculous in which I attempted to make a prediction about what the review says based on snippets that we could see. And here's where I came down. I think the review says Carmy is a brilliant genius, and other people aren't able to back him up and deliver. All this stuff that Carmy did about changing the menu every day and all that stuff has gotten him the attention that he wants and the - you're a brilliant genius, but it is not working for the other people. It's not working for Richie in service. It's not working for the kitchen.
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: It's just my prediction.
JOHNSEN: I mean, it's really hard to tell - right? - 'cause all we're seeing is flashing words. I think what I would really love is for it to actually be a takedown of Carmy and the fact that he is inconsistent - I think was one of the words that was used, right?
HOLMES: Inconsistent was used.
YOUNG: Yeah.
JOHNSEN: And, you know, it's like, yeah, if you're changing up the menu every day, you can't be excellent every day. So I think that's what I would really like to see is more of like, yeah, we thought he was a genius, but he is not working well enough with his team. But I don't know. I think in either sense, we're going to end up seeing how that goes, right?
YOUNG: Yeah.
HOLMES: Yeah. And, I mean, while we are talking, by the way, about some of the other characters on the show, I feel like we should acknowledge that this is also one of those shows where they always say the place where it exists is also a character. Greta, you are a Chicago person. How do you feel about Chicago as a character?
JOHNSEN: You know, it's a really interesting question. I think Chicagoans, in general, are still really excited and proud of this show. I think it has evolved really beautifully in a number of ways between Season 1 and Season 3. And I think especially in Season 1, I found myself getting really hung up on, like, logistical stuff, you know, where it's like, oh no, they can't possibly have been in this northern suburb and then back...
HOLMES: Right.
JOHNSEN: ...Downtown or whatever.
HOLMES: Sure.
JOHNSEN: I feel like the show has done a really good job.
YOUNG: With that traffic? (Laughter).
JOHNSEN: Exactly. I think the show has really beautifully gotten out of its own way in that sense, and I really love with this season that it feels like Chicago without, like, being about Chicago.
YOUNG: There are parts where watching this and saying, why aren't they dying the river green? But that's just me.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: Yeah, well, tell us what you think about "The Bear." Find us on Facebook at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Greta Johnsen, Ronald Young Jr., as you can tell, I could spend another hour talking about this show with you. Thank you so much for being here.
JOHNSEN: Thank you.
YOUNG: Thank you.
HOLMES: This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and Mike Katzif and edited by Jessica Reedy. Hello Come In provides our theme music.
Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we will see you all tomorrow.
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