FELIX CONTRERAS, HOST:
Just looking at the text you sent me with the dog face. What was that?
ANAMARIA SAYRE, HOST:
With a dog face? Because that girl texted me - what do you mean, a dog face? OK, that's - you have to click on the photo.
CONTRERAS: Yeah, it's a dog.
SAYRE: No, that's my background. You're supposed to look at the text.
CONTRERAS: Oh.
SAYRE: Ay-yi-yi.
CONTRERAS: Somebody told me it gets worse with age, but I can't remember who told me that.
SAYRE: (Laughter) And on that note...
CONTRERAS: From NPR Music, this is ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras.
SAYRE: And I'm Anamaria Sayre. Let the chisme may begin. And the chisme is piping hot.
CONTRERAS: Oh, my God. Right out of the oven.
SAYRE: Piping hot - I'm so excited because Shakira has just released her 12th - 12th album. I had to, like, do the math backwards on that because I didn't believe it.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PUNTERÍA")
SHAKIRA AND CARDI B: (Singing) Tú tiene' buena puntería. Sabe' por dónde darme pa' que quede rendía', rendía'.
SAYRE: This is her first in seven years, Felix. It's called "Las Mujeres Ya No Lloran," so safe to say it's been highly anticipated, highly talked about, highly listened to already. There's generally been a lot of positive reviews based on what I've seen poking around the internet, which I don't know if everyone in this room, in this space, is feeling that way - just based on a lot of the texts, Slacks, lengthy audios we've shared about the record so far. So I brought the amazing, the fabulous, the glorious Isabella Gomez Sarmiento on this week...
CONTRERAS: Woo hoo.
SAYRE: ...Reporting to help me (laughter) report for duty to break down this album, perhaps support me in some of my opinions. So, Felix, are you ready? Let's just get straight into it. So, Isa, we're starting with you. What were your impressions - general takeaways of the album? What were you expecting, to begin with?
ISABELLA GOMEZ SARMIENTO, BYLINE: OK. Wow. Thanks for throwing the heat on me to begin with.
CONTRERAS: (Laughter).
SAYRE: Not to put you - not to - just to give you a nice, friendly, easy welcome to the show.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: No. I appreciate that. OK. This is a two-pronged answer. I think I have very high expectations for Shakira as an artist. I think she is a multifaceted pop star who has transformed over and over in a way that has felt very authentic to me as an avid listener of her music since I was literally in diapers. Right? I was born in '97. She put out "Ladrones" in 1998.
CONTRERAS: Oh, my God.
SAYRE: (Laughter).
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: But for this album specifically, my expectations were not that high. That's because I haven't been as big of a fan of her last two records either. It didn't surprise me in an exciting way that maybe, like subconsciously, I was hoping it would, but it was kind of what I was expecting, which was, like, a fun, radio-ready thing that kind of sounded like it could have been made by anyone who's making pop music right now. And I don't really mean that in a good way.
(LAUGHTER)
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: What about you guys?
CONTRERAS: Shakira is one of those artists who, if I didn't do this for a living - what we do, we listen to music - I would still listen to her. And I don't say that about all artists. And I say that because of what Isa just said. Because she is a major artist, she has created a path for herself. She's a pioneer in a lot of senses.
Some of the pop stuff - you know, I'm not a big pop guy, right? But I've been listening to her music. I've been checking it out, just to see how she develops. So - and this record in particular, you know, I don't have strong feelings about it one way or the other. Not like you guys, because you're going to listen to it a lot more closely than I would. I heard stuff that I hear other people doing, like Isa said. There's nothing groundbreaking about it. But do we expect that from artists?
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LA FUERTE")
SHAKIRA AND BIZARRAP: (Singing) De haber sabido que iba a ser la última vez… Te hubiera gozado más, pero no te aproveché… Y por creer que no tenías caducidad… Guardé besos pa' despué', con las ganas me quedé… Te mentiría…
SAYRE: It felt like to me the key - Shakira's authenticity has a lot to do with her vocals. She becomes multiple different people, messages, experiences within one song, oftentimes just because of the way she's able to, like, chameleon with her voice. And the vocals just felt really flat to me on this. Like, there wasn't a lot of expression, a lot of personality, a lot of her. And so it's not just about the authenticity of the songwriting, which was obviously very personal on this record. She talked very publicly about her divorce, but more specifically the way that she actually presented herself - the heart felt a little absent.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "LA FUERTE")
SHAKIRA AND BIZARRAP: (Singing) Dime dónde, cómo…
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I've been listening to some of her older albums, like even like "Fijación Oral," right, which was like a pop album. This wasn't early '90s Shakira. This was, like, mid-2000s at the height of, you know, her crossover success.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "OBTENER UN SÍ")
SHAKIRA: (Singing) Basta que me enamores… O que me mandes flores… Para obtener un sí…
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: And I think, like - I don't know if this is a true story, but I've read before that when Shakira was little, someone I think, like a music teacher, allegedly told her she would never make it in music because her voice sounded like a goat.
SAYRE: I read that.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Yeah, and it...
SAYRE: That was amazing.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Exactly. Because I think that's what I love about her voice. Like, it's weird. She takes it to some really weird places. She warps it in really interesting ways. And like you said, I think that was glaringly absent from this record.
SAYRE: Yeah.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Which was just - I don't know. It was disappointing.
SAYRE: I love that you brought up that goat quote.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: (Laughter).
SAYRE: I thought that was absolutely incredible because it's not entirely inaccurate. Like, it's not, like, the craziest thing I've ever heard, that someone would compare her voice to a goat...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Right.
SAYRE: ...Because it's just - OK, wait, Felix, before you get offended, I'm - I mean no - I'm so sorry, Shakira. I don't mean it. My point is the texture of her voice - it's so unique. Like, it is so versatile. It's not stereotypically clean pop star sound. It's like you're sitting at the table with 10 different people. Sometimes she's la tóxica, and sometimes she's the enamorada, and sometimes she's the angry one or the feisty one or the sad or the soulful one. And I feel like her voice is a character. Watching it grow and develop and pass through all these moments of her life has been, for me, at least, really a pivotal touchpoint and important piece of her journey as an artist.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "EL JEFE")
SHAKIRA AND FUERZA REGIDA: (Singing) Shakira, Shakira. Fuerza Regida… 7:30, ha sonado la alarma… Yo con ganas…
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I think in the past, the way that Shakira has managed to bring in sounds from the Middle East, sounds from - you know, she's done bossa nova, next to dancehall, next to, like, a more straightforward pop, next to rock. Like, she's been doing that stuff forever, but she's always managed to do it in a way that feels very intentional and in a way that's woven together very intricately, which is what I love about her. And I think what really allowed her crossover to be as successful as it was because she was never crossing from one point to another. She was sort of walking that line back and forth.
This album doesn't feel like it's doing that. This album feels like a bit of a checklist of, like, we're going to hit regional. We're going to hit this sort of, like, Afrobeats moment with production from Tainy. We're going to do a rock song because the fans have been begging for a rock song. Like, it didn't feel like she sat down and was like, how far can I push this? And you know - I don't know. It didn't feel like a huge experiment or risk in the way some of her cross-genre stuff has felt in the past.
SAYRE: So Felix, obviously Isa and I are notably slightly disappointed (laughter) in Shakira's performance on this record. But I'm curious - you as someone who perhaps has witnessed multiple iterations of various artists at different points in their career reinventing themselves, putting out new versions of themselves - what could have or should have been our expectation? I mean, is it fair that the bar is this high in terms of innovation from her?
CONTRERAS: Is that your polite way of saying that I'm old?
(LAUGHTER)
SAYRE: Wise and experienced.
CONTRERAS: This part of the conversation reminds me of things - artists like Paul Simon and Peter Gabriel in particular because in the grand view of their long careers...
(SOUNDBITE OF PAUL SIMON SONG, "YOU CAN CALL ME AL")
CONTRERAS: ...These two artists - when Paul Simon released "Graceland" and Peter Gabriel released "So" back in the '80s, they'd already had maybe, you know, at least 20 years of experience in the record business. You know, they had a series of albums before those groundbreaking records that were just like, eh, OK, what are we doing? Who am I? You could hear them kind of flailing around in what they're doing. And then all of a sudden, they hit these two marks, these high watermarks, and completely changed everything in their, like, second career, second wind in their career and all that.
And I think that if we put Shakira in these - in that context right now - seven years between records, this record comes out. All the things that you guys said are just - are legitimate points to raise. But I think if we look at it in terms of in the long run, like, this is what she puts out now after seven years. Like, what's going to happen next - right? - because she still obviously has something to say and still obviously wants to say it in a way that maybe fits her or will be completely different. I think we do have to consider Shakira mid-career right now after almost 25 years. And then, I don't know, maybe we cut her a little slack of what she is and what she did with this because we don't know what's coming next.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "CÓMO DÓNDE Y CUÁNDO")
SHAKIRA: (Singing) Agarra una toalla y un traje de baño… Vamos a la playa y nos olvidamos, por un milimicrosegundo, de lo malo del mundo… El tiempo se va volando, cuando se pasa bien, eh-eh… No importa cómo, dónde y cuándo… Lo que importa es con quién…
SAYRE: I want a disclaimer before I ask this next question and say that I think Shakira is absolutely brilliant. I think she's an incredible lyricist, a beautiful vocalist, has absolutely opened doors for countless, like - I think many American artists have had doors opened in ways that they wouldn't even be able to know because of what Shakira's done, how she's innovated and shown up authentically in the pop space. But I do want to ask, I mean, do we even need to care? Like...
CONTRERAS: About what?
SAYRE: ...If someone releases an album that isn't that wonderful or inspiring or interesting or pushing the genre forward, do we need to care just because it's Shakira?
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I think the reason we do need to care at this moment, and because it's Shakira, is because Latin music looks vastly different right now than it did last time Shakira put an album out. I think we've seen this huge, huge, huge explosion. I mean, it's like the Bad Bunny phenomenon - right? - that has taken over and the way that, like, Latin music has essentially become pop since Shakira last released a project. The fact that she was one of the first - I'm not going to say she was the first. Obviously, there was Gloria Estefan. There was Julio Iglesias. There were a lot of people that came before Shakira. But I think in terms of, like, pop, specifically, Shakira, like you said, opened so many doors. And in this time that she's been away from the studio, away from the spotlight, in as big of a capacity as she has been in the past, the industry has changed so much. So her reentering feels important. And - but I do think to Felix's point, that also means that her just making an album right now represents a certain risk because she is entering this different industry. So maybe it does make sense for her to play it safe, for her to, you know, re-earn fans, re-earn listeners, and then say something else, something deeper, take a bigger risk down the line. This was just kind of her, like - I don't want to call it a comeback, but, you know, it was like her reintroduction, I guess, to the pop space.
CONTRERAS: Look at where we are. Like, all the streams, all the attention, the lack of crossover, the way it's dominated the pop music world in any language right now. To step back into that as an artist, like, oof (ph), it's kind of scary.
SAYRE: I'm almost having trouble reconciling what I see as, like, multiple Shakiras existing in the universe right now. Like, there's Shakira's legacy that is still, like, beating so strong, like, in terms of - I don't know - millions of streams constantly of people revisiting some of her greatest works. And then there's this Shakira now who is, like, currently creating music in a contemporary space and what that looks and sounds like and feels like. And I'm having trouble, almost, like, putting the two pieces together in my head.
CONTRERAS: And that's not going to change. That's always going to be there as, you know, our favorite artists get older and start to do more things, right? I mean, that's - I went through that with one of my favorite bands, Santana.
(SOUNDBITE OF SANTANA SONG, "SMOOTH")
CONTRERAS: You're always going to struggle with that. There's always going to be more than one Shakira, and that's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing 'cause are you the same person you were when you were - you know, 10 years ago, even seven years ago, right? We got to allow for that as we listen to our artists and listen to our favorites.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "COHETE")
SHAKIRA AND RAUW ALEJANDRO: (Singing) La Luna está pa' que nos besemos… Si ellos supieran todas las cosas que hacemos… Por las estrellas, siempre nos peleamos… Se alinean lo planetas cada vez que nos vemos…
SAYRE: So taking us extremely present and making a comparison that feels kind of essential here, I think of her with her contemporaries like, let's say, Beyonce who has also, you know, been around consistently, consistently reinvented herself, keeps coming back with new music, new innovation, new genres even. I mean, Beyonce has been praised in many ways to be consistently leveling up, to be constantly creating something new of herself. And this feels to me like maybe the first divergence for the two in terms of that level of innovation.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I mean, I agree with you. I've always seen her on par with someone like Beyonce, and I think Beyonce is pushing the bar so much further right now than I feel like Shakira is. And that is a little difficult to reckon with because, like you and I have talked extensively, Ana, like, it raises this big question of, like, does this album - what does this album do to her legacy? Does it do anything? And worse, like, does it harm it? Does it make us see Shakira in a more negative way than we did before we heard the album? Maybe that's not the best way to phrase it, but, you know, like, I don't know.
CONTRERAS: But are we allowing her to grow and develop and take ginger steps, small steps before she finds something that she really needs to say that's going to completely change the way she expresses herself if that comes around?
SAYRE: I suppose the question, Felix, for me is, like, if anything, I feel like she's been given a lot of grace with this record. Like, I feel like a lot of people have given it a lot of positive feedback, and I can't believe that the fact that she is who she is is not at least a good percentage of the reason behind that, right? Like, does that feel disingenuous or like she's taking up space that some new artists with a lot of fresh ideas could be taking?
CONTRERAS: I think ultimately the final answer is with the fans. Like, how are the singles doing? They're blowing up, right?
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TQG")
KAROL G: (Singing) La que te dijo que un vacío se llena con otra persona te miente… Es como tapar una herida con maquillaje… No se ve, pero se siente… Te fuiste diciendo que me superaste… Y te conseguiste nueva novia… Lo que ella no sabe es que tú todavía me está' viendo toa' la' historia'… Bebé, ¿qué fue?... ¿No pues que muy tragadito?... ¿Qué haces buscándome el la'o, si sabes que yo errores no repito?...
CONTRERAS: People love it. That's - I mean, artists are not writing for the fans. They're writing for themselves. And if the fans go along with it as a result, it's even better. But maybe that's the final word or at least one of the determining factors. These people love the record, man. So there.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: But do they?
SAYRE: Fine.
(LAUGHTER)
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: But do they? - is the thing. Like, I was kind of surprised seeing how positive the reviews were. I think because she is Shakira and because she is this, like, icon, it seems like a lot of people offered her more grace than they would have another artist putting out this exact same record.
CONTRERAS: I go back to Miles Davis when he started playing electric music and people brutalized him, just completely raked him over the coals and wrote him off. He's no longer a jazz musician. He's using this - electric instruments. This is like 1969, '70. And he started making records in 1947 or so.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
CONTRERAS: They nailed him, and he's like, I don't care. I'm going to do what I do. And he, in fact, changed the sound of jazz at least three or four times - literally changed single-handedly with his bands. So we're talking now about a musician who is taking stock - seems to be taking stock of where she is and what she's been doing in the record business and as a way of expressing herself.
SAYRE: The mistakes have to happen for this, like, next iteration of...
CONTRERAS: If they are mistakes, people dig it. People - are you saying that people are just like, well - they don't know what they're listening to, and they're just accepting the mistakes because they're - it's Shakira?
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I guess it feels like it would be easier to forgive a mistake if it felt like the mistake was a real artistic risk, like what you're saying about Miles Davis, right? It's, like, he put himself - he was doing something new and different, and people reacted really strongly to it. I guess it feels harder to, like, stomach a mistake that just feels like playing it safe. But maybe that's just where she is right now. Like, we don't - this is also part of, like, celebrity culture. Like, we don't know her. We can't expect her to be making a statement like Beyonce. She clearly went through this big personal thing.
CONTRERAS: Exactly.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: This is what she had to offer. I - it's not - I can't be, like, because I've been listening to Shakira forever, she's capable of more than this. Like, I don't know, maybe she's not.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "MONOTONÍA")
SHAKIRA: (Singing) No fue culpa tuya ni tampoco mía… Fue culpa de la monotonía… Nunca dije nada, pero me dolía… Yo sabía que esto pasaría… Tú en lo tuyo y haciendo lo mismo… Siempre buscando protagonismo… Te olvidaste…
SAYRE: And, Isa, you know, you did ask me recently, like, a lot of people have had qualms with the way that she's been super - I don't know. They've almost been suggesting that she's been exploitative of her own experiences by, like, detailing every single tiny, minute part of her divorce and everything that happened. And what I said and continue to say is she recognizes her own, you know - her own experiences are part of her brand, her commodity. I mean, yes, maybe she's mourning. And this is her art, and she wants to be very explicit. But also, like, I don't think I or anyone else can fault her for sharing details or experiences that are going to encourage people to listen to her music. Like, I think we like to think of our favorite biggest stars is still whatever they were when they started, and she's now however many years into this business and understands how it operates and understands the value of presenting this kind of information. It's her information. She can do what she wants with it.
CONTRERAS: I think the thing to think about right here is something that you said and something that Isabella said. And it's like there are a number of Shakiras. And Isabella just mentioned the idea of celebrity culture, and she has to exist within that celebrity culture, right? So they don't always reconcile, and they don't always have the same thing to say. And she may not put more stock in one over the other. But you still have to deal with that. And we have to - we create those spaces. We create that celebrity culture. We create our own image of who she is. Like you said, do we want her to be the same? You know, do we want her hips not to lie, right? I mean, and continue to do that.
SAYRE: And I think, you know, as much as we all want to believe that Shakira's our best friend because she told us all about her breakup, and it feels like we were sitting in the sala with her and like, you know, eating ice cream and talking about BK, like, we're never going to know (laughter)...
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Totally.
SAYRE: ...We're never going to know what's in her head, you know? And so it's like, we have to - I think as maybe consumers of her music, we have to pick the Shakira we want to continue to sit with. I think I'd rather still sit with '90s Shakira. And she's going to help me through my breakups. Maybe current Shakira is not. But for others, maybe they'll find something in that as well.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: I think it is also an age thing in that way because I think a lot of older Shakira fans that I've met love the album. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe it's just where I am in my life right now, also? I relate to, like, 20s - Shakira when she was in her 20s, yeah. So I don't know.
SAYRE: How fabulously sad Isabella. That is - I think that is precisely what the issue - or rather the benefit is of this experience. Shakira has something for everyone.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: There you go.
(SOUNDBITE OF SHAKIRA SONG, "ESCONDITE INGLÉS")
SAYRE: Well, thank you so much for joining us. We love having you. I'm glad that we got to bring this to life because we spent I don't know how many hours talking about it off the mic.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Gracias, gracias.
CONTRERAS: This was a lot of fun.
SAYRE: Let us know if you think so too. Send us an email [email protected] or find us on Facebook.
CONTRERAS: Isa, thank you so much for sitting in on this.
GOMEZ SARMIENTO: Thank you guys for having me.
CONTRERAS: You have been listening to ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras. Our audio producer for this show is Joaquin Cotler.
SAYRE: Our editor is Hazel Cills.
CONTRERAS: The woman who helps us keep everything together is Grace Chung.
SAYRE: The executive producer of NPR music is Suraya Mohamed.
CONTRERAS: And the jefe de los jefes is Keith Jenkins.
SAYRE: Special thanks to Isabella Gomez Sarmiento from the culture desk for joining us this week.
CONTRERAS: Again, I'm Felix Contreras.
SAYRE: I'm Anamaria Sayre.
CONTRERAS: Thank you for listening.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "ESCONDITE INGLÉS")
SHAKIRA: (Singing) Cuenta del uno al diez… Y me escondo donde puedas verme… Uno, dos, uno, dos, uno, dos, uno, dos, dos por cinco, diez…
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