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BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: This week, we're going to do something a little different.
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LUSE: Usually, I'm the one asking the tough questions, but today, I'm going to take a spin in the hot seat.
RACHEL MARTIN, BYLINE: I'm so ready.
LUSE: I'm being interviewed by Rachel Martin, former NPR Morning Edition host and my colleague, but it's not going to be a normal sit-down. It's part interview, part existential game show, and it's basically what she's doing every week now, as part of a new podcast from NPR called Wild Card.
MARTIN: I'll tell you, as a professional interviewer, I got really tired of reverse engineering questions to elicit a certain answer from a person. I have, like, a purpose to my news interview, and this is just - my purpose is just to know you. That is it.
LUSE: I wanted to see what Wild Card was all about, so I invited Rachel to come on and show me exactly how this game works. Rachel Martin, welcome to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE.
MARTIN: Brittany, thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
LUSE: Absolutely my pleasure. Absolutely my pleasure.
MARTIN: OK, I do need to explain the following. This is a conversation game, OK?
LUSE: Conversation game, OK.
MARTIN: Conversation game with a very special deck of cards, all right? I've got a deck of cards in front of me.
LUSE: I see.
MARTIN: Each one has a question on it. I'm going to hold up three cards at a time, Brittany, and then you are going to choose one at random to answer. You with me?
LUSE: OK. Ooh, nervous. OK.
MARTIN: Yeah, it's OK. You know why? Here - listen to this. There are two rules, only two.
LUSE: OK.
MARTIN: You get one skip, so it's like an escape hatch.
LUSE: Oh, OK.
MARTIN: If you used your skip, though, I'm going to swap it in for another question from the deck, but you do have a skip, OK? You can deploy that.
LUSE: OK.
MARTIN: And you get one flip, which means you can put me on the spot and ask me to answer one of the questions before you do. You still got to answer it, but I'll do it first. It buys you some time, you know what I mean?
LUSE: Oh, OK, so I get a skip and a flip. OK.
MARTIN: Yeah, a skip and a flip.
LUSE: And how many questions are you going to ask me?
MARTIN: We're going to do three.
LUSE: Three rounds - OK. All right. OK.
MARTIN: So three questions - one question per round - memories, insights and beliefs. Also, because it's a game, there's a prize at the end - whoop, whoop.
LUSE: Oh, OK.
MARTIN: So how you feeling? You ready?
LUSE: Yeah, I'm totally ready. I'm excited.
MARTIN: Yeah. I like it. I believe you. OK - three cards in front of you right now. You cannot see the questions; you just see the blank side. You pick one - one, two, three.
LUSE: I'm going to go for the middle card. I'm the middle child, so I'm going to go for the middle card. Yeah.
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LUSE: Oh, no.
MARTIN: What was your form of rebelling as a teenager?
LUSE: What was my form of rebelling as a teenager? I had a pretty tight leash when I was a teenager. I think I was too nervous for what the consequences could be, but, like, school - oh, my gosh, I was always pushing boundaries at school, I think, to a certain degree. Every single one of my report cards was like, talks too much, which I (laughter) - yeah, talks too much was, like, socializes too much, which I think is very gendered, and if a teacher specifically got on my nerves, or I felt like they were being kind of, like, annoying or if I felt like they were being racist, I was antagonistic back.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: I think a lot of people might have felt more comfortable rebelling against their parents. I was like, I'm not playing with these people...
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...But I will absolutely play in the faces of all of my teachers, so I would, like, talk back, not do assignments, question the validity of things. Oh, I remember being in calculus and asking my teacher, as I'm sure millions of children have throughout all of history in American high schools, when are you going to use this in real life? And bless this man - the example that he gave was if I wanted to measure the shadow of a tree, and me, I know - and I'm like, I'm sure he meant well, but oh, my gosh, me at, like, 16...
MARTIN: But I love that you remember that, and now, Brittany, when you're out there and you see all these shadows of the trees, you're like, damn it.
LUSE: I know. I think about that and I'm like, thank God I have a tape measure and I have no curiosity about this.
MARTIN: (Laughter) See, we got there. I got a picture of who you were. I totally get it. You were smarter than your teachers - is really what it got down to.
LUSE: I mean, I'll take it. That's what I tell myself, for sure, now.
MARTIN: OK, sure. That was memories. Round two...
LUSE: Insights?
MARTIN: Insights. Three new cards - one, two, three.
LUSE: I'll go with the number one, card number one.
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MARTIN: What's a lesson you have to learn over and over?
LUSE: Ooh, that's a good one. Now, insights (laughter) - I'll definitely do better with insights than memory. I've been in therapy for 12 years...
MARTIN: There you go.
LUSE: ...So there's a lot of things that come up over and over and over and over and over again.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: One of the biggest lessons that I actually am in the process of re-learning for the bajillionth time right now is to actually try to be present. Once I got onto the career path that was right for me, once I got into, like, journalism, media, started podcasting and making radio as I do now, things were clicking. They weren't just clicking for me. It was like my career was clicking. I got really into, like, work and working all the time. I think I felt like because I had slacked off when I was younger, I needed to lock into, like, everything right now - like, say yes to everything; say yes to everybody; try to keep up with everybody; try to help everyone.
MARTIN: And were you not being in the moment as you were doing those things?
LUSE: Well, not only was I not being in the moment, I would not address anything that was happening in my actual life.
MARTIN: Oh.
LUSE: So everything was just, like, work was going to be the biggest priority, or I was over-extending myself, trying to also be at every birthday party and trying to visit for every holiday, trying to do everything at my job, trying to be there in my relationship and pick up the phone and answer every text message, you know? And I was not present with myself at all.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: And eventually, like with many people, in 2020, once I was kind of, like, confronted with being with myself all of the time, it became very clear to me just how much I was always either someplace else, being concerned with what somebody else needed, or I was always thinking about the future. What's next? Like, what if this job doesn't work out? And eventually, I completely burnt myself out. I reached a point where I exhausted myself so much that it was like, oh, I actually can't read my email today, or oh, I I know that I have to deliver, like, 1,500 words on this by tomorrow, but I'm like, I physically can't do it anymore.
MARTIN: That's right. Well, that's what happens. When you burn out on something, there's no space to ruminate the future or obsess about the past. Like, you're just, I got nothing, so I'm just going to be here.
LUSE: Exactly, and so this is the first time - this job right now - where I am not fixating on the future, and I'll finish work and go for a walk, like, force myself sometimes just to be like, I don't have to stew in this in my brain. I can close my computer and I can go for a walk, call my parents...
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: Or I can FaceTime my niece or actually call a friend back - when I'm at work, being at work and being fully 100% there, but then when I'm not, to actually just unplug. I've been sleeping through the night, which was something I couldn't do for my entire adult life until maybe a year ago, year-and-a-half ago?
MARTIN: Ah, I'm happy for you. I know what that feels like.
LUSE: I don't know. I feel like every answer I'm giving you, like, is depressing.
MARTIN: No, no, no, it's not 'cause it's a lot of people's thing, you know? Round three.
LUSE: Beliefs.
MARTIN: Three new cards - one, two, three.
LUSE: Let's go with three. I did two; I did one; let's two three.
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MARTIN: What does it mean to live a good life?
LUSE: That's a great question. What does it mean to live a good life? For me, it is a peace of mind. Like, I'm a person who always - throughout, like, pretty much every phase of my life, I have always believed that everybody should meet everybody else. Nothing brings me more joy than when one of my friends from one area of my life becomes friends with another. I love it.
MARTIN: Does it ever not work out? 'Cause I always worry that I'm going to introduce two people who I feel like should love each other and then they don't.
LUSE: I let it happen spontaneously. I know a lot of people don't like to do that because they feel like they're a different person with different friends.
MARTIN: Yeah. Right.
LUSE: And I feel my best when I am myself wherever I go.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: It's too much for me. If I feel like I have to be a version of myself that I would not recognize in a situation at a workplace - I mean, which I'm blessed enough to be able to have the flexibility to do that now; I didn't always - or in a relationship; if I feel like I'm being a fake version of myself, I can't sleep. I'll almost break out in hives. My body will react. But yeah - to me, living a good life is being able to be exactly who I am, being able to have the peace of mind that comes from not faking how I show up in the world. I'm very lucky.
MARTIN: And that's connected to wanting to bring your friends together.
LUSE: I don't have a problem bringing those people together because I am the same with all of them.
MARTIN: Yeah. That's a gift. That's a lovely thing.
LUSE: Yeah, it is a gift.
MARTIN: You win. You win the game.
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LUSE: Coming up, Rachel gets into the life lessons she's learning from WILD CARD, and I claim a very special prize. Stay tuned.
(Laughter) It's so - being on the opposite end, like, being on the guest's end of things in this conversation, it is illuminating for me just how personal these conversations can get.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: It's such a unique way to do an interview. I mean, you've been interviewing for a long time, but this is a totally different level of intimacy. How has changed how you think about your job?
MARTIN: Well, this is my job now, and let's be clear - it's very different, and it's not an interview. I really don't think of it as that. It's like this choose-your-own-adventure kind of intimacy place, and it can be intimidating - right? - and not everyone's going to want to do it. That's cool. I'm not forcing anyone to do this, but I do believe that when we talk about beliefs that help us understand the world and experiences that have shaped us, I believe that there is a universality to that. And I know that can be kind of a controversial thing to say these days, but I do think that there are some fundamentals that every single human thinks about - why are we here? What happens after we die? What does it mean to live a good life? - and I wanted to make a space where we could talk about that stuff. I just wanted to be surprised by people again.
LUSE: Hmm. As you put it, this is a conversation, which means that you're sharing also. You just said that you desired to be surprised. What is the most surprising thing you've learned about yourself playing this game?
MARTIN: Playing the game - that I have made a lot of choices that came with a lot of sacrifices, a lot of very deep personal sacrifices.
LUSE: Say more.
MARTIN: Oh, just up - job. I had a certain idea of what it meant to be a successful person, and my idea of what that success looked like, it was a pretty firm definition. And granted, I chose this line of work that allowed for a lot of hither and yon. And let's go down this path because it was all part of journalism and exploring my curiosity. But in order to do that, I made a lot of personal sacrifices.
I moved around a ton. I ended a lot of relationships. I didn't invest in friendships. I had a family member who was very ill for a long time, and I wasn't with that person nearly the way that I wanted to be with that person. So, you know, these questions bring a lot of that up and my own blind spots about my own life. And I find that useful. And I think whenever you hear people kind of working through that in real time, I think other people find versions of it that apply to their own life.
LUSE: OK. Rachel, you said there was going to be a prize, and it's interesting because I didn't think this was a game that you could, like, win. I didn't think I was competing for anything.
MARTIN: Everybody wins. It's like everyone gets a trophy on the soccer team when you're in second grade. Everybody wins this game.
LUSE: (Laughter).
MARTIN: Here's your prize. Are you ready?
LUSE: OK. OK. OK.
MARTIN: Your prize is a trip in our memory time machine. You're going to take a trip in our memory time machine to revisit one moment from your past. This is a moment you wouldn't change anything about. You just want to spend a little more time there. What moment do you choose?
LUSE: Ooh, that's a really good one. When my husband and I first started dating, it had been, like, two, 2 1/2 months. And so I'm like, OK, we should go up and go apple picking, you know? I was like, I really like this guy. I think that'll be a fun activity to do.
My husband is not from a place with a similar climate. My husband's from Puerto Rico, and he was, like, 29, 30. So, in his mind, he's like, apples? Like, how good can an apple be? Who cares? But he liked me, so he was, like, willing to go along with it.
So we took a train up to some orchard, like, an hour outside of New York and got the cider and doughnuts and had the cider, and we went and picked apples. And the foliage was gorgeous. You don't get to see it in the same way - at least I don't - in the city the way that you do when you're upstate, and it's just...
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Rolling hills of foliage as far as the eye can see. And my husband was so stunned and in the moment and so overwhelmed with joy standing at the top of some hill in the orchard, eating a fresh apple off the tree for his first time. And it was my first time doing that in - probably since I was in elementary school.
And just looking at all of the leaves and everything like that, orange and yellow and - oh, it was, like, one of the first intentional memories that we had made together. And it was a moment where it was so clear to me how special of a person he really is. Oh, my God. I'm going to cry. I never have done that. Just that he could be so open to a new experience and open with how much he enjoyed it.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: So many people struggle to do that, you know? So many people struggle to be open to something unfamiliar to them or something that might seem corny.
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: And then to, like, actually, really take it in 150% and say in the moment how much they're enjoying it...
MARTIN: Yeah.
LUSE: ...And how much it means to them - I would love to go back to that moment. That was a perfect day.
MARTIN: We just did, and that was lovely.
LUSE: I know. We have a yearly tradition around it now. We go apple picking every year.
MARTIN: Do you?
LUSE: That was the first tradition that we set together. Yeah.
MARTIN: Oh, I love that.
LUSE: Yeah.
MARTIN: That was a really good one.
LUSE: When you said I was going to win a prize, you were absolutely right about that, but thank you so much. This has been a really uplifting conversation in so many unexpected ways. Thank you.
MARTIN: Oh, I'm so glad. It was for me, too. Thank you for being game. It was great.
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LUSE: That was Rachel Martin. Her new show, Wild Card, is out now, and she's got a totally star-studded lineup coming down the pipeline with some of your favorite celebrities like Issa Rae.
ISSA RAE: I always wonder, like, what would my life have been? How many children would I have prematurely if I had taken that trip? But there are so many other moments where it's just, oh, my God, if that hadn't happened, I wouldn't have had the happiness that I have today.
LUSE: You can hear more Wild Card wherever you get your podcasts.
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LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
BILAL QURESHI, BYLINE: Bilal Qureshi.
LUSE: Engineering support came from...
KO TAKASUGI-CZERNOWIN, BYLINE: Ko Takasugi-Czernowin.
LUSE: We had fact-checking help from...
SUSIE CUMMINGS, BYLINE: Susie Cummings.
LUSE: Our executive producer is...
VERALYN WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Veralyn Williams.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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