Debate Fallout, Biden Tries to Rebound, Public Housing in the Summer.
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AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
President Biden's supporters packed a rally in North Carolina yesterday.
DANIELLE KURTZLEBEN, HOST:
Despite his stumbling performance at the debate against Donald Trump.
RASCOE: I'm Ayesha Rascoe.
KURTZLEBEN: And I'm Danielle Kurtzleben. And this is UP FIRST from NPR News.
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RASCOE: Coming up, Biden and Trump take to the road after their first debate.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I thought it was awesome. I thought - that was Joe Biden today. He hit on some very strong points. And democracy is on the line.
KURTZLEBEN: Plus, what did Trump say about accepting the results of this year's election - or not?
RASCOE: And the federal government relaxes its stance on who should pay to keep public housing residents cool this summer.
KURTZLEBEN: Stay with us. We have the news you need to start your weekend.
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KURTZLEBEN: The first presidential debate of the general election season, plus Supreme Court decisions keep rolling in.
RASCOE: Let's look back on a busy week in politics with NPR senior editor and correspondent Ron Elving.
KURTZLEBEN: Ron, thanks for being with us.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Danielle.
KURTZLEBEN: OK, Ron, this week's debate. President Biden was visibly shaky. Meanwhile, former President Trump issued a torrent of ad hominem attacks and a whole lot of lies. How well was the electorate served on Thursday night?
ELVING: Obviously, the electorate was not well-served on Thursday night. There was a feast of red meat for partisans in both camps, but regular folks and swing voters had to be left feeling distinctly undernourished. That was also largely the case when these two men debated four years ago. One big difference this time was they couldn't talk over each other or ignore the moderators, because the moderators could cut off the mics. That was supposed to restrain Trump's ranting and rudeness, and it did, a bit, which probably helped him, because he seemed not only energetic and animated, as always, but also more disciplined than we have seen him forced to be in the past.
KURTZLEBEN: OK, so this was a repeat matchup, but did you learn anything new here?
ELVING: I'm not sure it counts as learning something new, but it's a never-ending source of amazement at how Trump can take a real, important issue - such as illegal border crossings - and exaggerate it and distort it beyond recognition, escalating his numbers and superlatives ever higher, even within the space and length of one answer.
But the news from this debate was all about Joe Biden. Like you said, he was shaky. He was shocking to a lot of his sympathizers and maybe even to his detractors. Now we have major newspaper editorials urging him to drop out and give the Democrats a chance to find a better champion, even at this late date. Another thing we're learning is how difficult it is to remove a presumptive nominee who has all the delegates, or nearly all the delegates, already committed to him, even if the party wants to.
KURTZLEBEN: Right. Well, now, January 6 figured prominently into this debate, with Trump pointedly not saying he would accept the results of this year's election, in much the same way he didn't accept the 2020 results. And then, the very next day, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of some of the January 6 defendants. So what did the court say, and does it also apply to the charges that Trump faces?
ELVING: The court ruled that the specific charge of obstructing Congress was written to refer to documents and records being altered or destroyed. So because the rioters did not get their hands on the actual certificates - the actual documents from the 2020 electoral college, much as they wanted to - the court said the prosecutors had overstepped in using that charge, broadening it to include any kind of impediment or obstruction of an official proceeding. Now, this charge was used in more than 300 cases stemming from the January 6 riot, so a number of the rioters will need to be resentenced or retried, or just released. And it could also affect two of the four charges in the election subversion case against Trump, although that remains to be determined, as his specific actions to interfere with the counting of the Electoral College may still meet the statutory test.
KURTZLEBEN: There was also that other huge decision with the Chevron ruling. What do people need to know about that one?
ELVING: It's another landmark for the Roberts court and its 6-3 majority that usually includes the three Trump appointees among the six. This was a challenge to a key element of the federal regulatory regime that's been in place for decades, the target here being a case involving the Chevron oil company back in the early 1980s. In 1984, the Supreme Court said that when Congress makes laws protecting public health and safety or the environment or other things, it's OK for Congress to delegate the writing of specific rules and standards to executive agencies, the idea there being those agencies would have more time and expertise to do this and to evolve them over time, as they will have the task of carrying out and enforcing those laws.
So the Chevron decision back then ordered lower courts to defer to these agency interpretations of the law when there were challenges. And lots of industry groups and others have long challenged these regulations, saying they were written by bureaucrats and not by Congress, and should not have the force of law unless they can withstand a challenge in court. Now, Chief Justice Roberts wrote on Friday this was unconstitutional because it meant executive branch people were deciding what the law was when it seemed ambiguous or subject to interpretation. Roberts said having agencies do that violated the separation of powers. So critics of this ruling warn that if you make Congress get into this kind of detail when passing bills, you will slow their process down and make laws protecting the public much more difficult to enact in the first place.
KURTZLEBEN: That's NPR's Ron Elving. Ron, thanks so much.
ELVING: Thank you, Danielle.
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RASCOE: President Biden did his best to put his poor debate performance behind him and headed up from Atlanta to Raleigh, N.C.
KURTZLEBEN: Trump, meanwhile, traveled to Virginia.
RASCOE: Which is potentially in play for both parties this year, though it's leaned Democratic in recent elections.
KURTZLEBEN: NPR's Stephen Fowler watched both events and joins us from Raleigh. Hey, Stephen.
STEPHEN FOWLER, BYLINE: Good morning, Danielle.
KURTZLEBEN: Now, Stephen, Democrats were concerned - alarmed, even - by Biden's poor performance at the debate on Thursday, and that started a lot of talk about replacing him on the ticket. How did he show up at the rally that you saw?
FOWLER: I mean, Danielle, it was almost like the debate and debate Biden didn't exist. This was a high energy, big crowd of about 2,000 people, and Biden hammered Trump on abortion, the future of democracy and all of these other topics that didn't show up in the debate. Biden acknowledged he didn't fully show up then, either.
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PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: I don't walk as easy as I used to. I don't speak as smoothly as I used to. I don't debate as well as I used to, but I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth.
FOWLER: I mean, this was Joe Biden that Joe Biden's supporters knew, and it's a total disconnect from the current D.C. discourse about Biden, especially after talking with voters.
KURTZLEBEN: Well, what did those voters have to say? Were they as shocked as some of those top Democrats in D.C. and pundits?
FOWLER: I mean, no, they weren't shocked at Biden's performance. Every voter I talked to said they'd basically crawl over broken glass to support him. They didn't really like his debate performance, but they also weren't expecting a lot from him there. Here's 25-year-old Kendrick Green (ph). He's a recent law school graduate who said rallies like this are important to Biden gaining more support.
KENDRICK GREEN: I think he was good on the issues last night, but I think he was a little slow on his feet, which is like him. You know, he's not normally, you know, the attack person. But I definitely think that he definitely rebounded great, and I was impressed today.
FOWLER: There's also Rob Cushman (ph), who said Biden was probably too old to debate somebody like Trump, who doesn't tell the truth at times.
ROB CUSHMAN: He's not his most nimble as - conversationally, but I can tell his heart's in the right place, and he has my issues in mind. And the things he's done to bring this country forward are amazing.
KURTZLEBEN: OK. So they support Biden. They acknowledge he has some weaknesses. Now, how much did Biden go on the offensive against Trump?
FOWLER: I mean, quite a bit. I mean, because think of it this way, Danielle. Support for Joe Biden has also been explicitly about opposing Trump and his vision for the future, which the president constantly reminds people in his remarks.
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BIDEN: That is what is at stake in America this election.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Yes.
BIDEN: Your freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Yes.
BIDEN: Your democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Yes.
BIDEN: America itself is at stake.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Yes.
KURTZLEBEN: OK. Biden wants to put the attention on Trump in some ways. So what argument is Trump making post-debate?
FOWLER: Pretty much the same argument that he made during the debate and makes all the time at his campaign rallies - America has gone to hell under Joe Biden because of things like immigration and inflation and other policies. Interestingly, there's not as much emphasis on Biden's age or mental fitness as you might think. Some of that's because Trump is also old. He also rambles and stumbles over his words, but also because a key part of Trump's narrative is that Biden is this mastermind of all of these policies that make America not great.
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DONALD TRUMP: But remember, the biggest problem for our country is not Joe Biden's personal decline. It's that Joe Biden's policies are causing America's decline at a level that we've never seen before.
KURTZLEBEN: OK. But back to Biden. If Democrats' fears about his performance are true, can he make up the ground he lost at the debate by doing these rallies?
FOWLER: Well, Danielle, I'd argue that it's not really evident yet that Biden lost any ground, at least not among voters and groups that will actually matter come November. The people obsessively reading the opinion section of The New York Times, telling Biden to step aside or watching an eight-person cable news panel hypothesizing replacements or...
KURTZLEBEN: (Laughter).
FOWLER: ...Doomscrolling social media - those aren't the ones who need to be convinced to vote for Biden.
KURTZLEBEN: Sure.
FOWLER: For example, there's these people out there called double haters who don't like Trump or Biden, and they're deciding more if they vote at all in this rematch of 2020 because it's a rematch, so the undecided factor is not, oh, who's this Trump guy? Who's this Biden guy? Polls right now show these voters, which cut across the wide coalition that elected Biden the first time - younger voters, nonwhite voters - they could be the ones that make or break who wins in states like North Carolina that'll be close. So that's who they have to reach in the next four months.
KURTZLEBEN: That's NPR's Stephen Fowler in Raleigh, N.C. Thank you so much, Stephen.
FOWLER: Thank you.
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RASCOE: Until now, federal rules have prohibited public housing authorities around the country from covering the cost of air conditioning for their tenants.
KURTZLEBEN: That's even though their tenants are overwhelmingly low or very low income.
RASCOE: But just this month, the Biden administration announced that local authorities can pay for those costs. NPR's Jennifer Ludden is here to explain. Hi, Jennifer.
JENNIFER LUDDEN, BYLINE: Hey, Ayesha.
RASCOE: So this might be a surprise to some listeners that public housing agencies have not been allowed to pay for cooling. What's the reasoning behind that?
LUDDEN: Yeah, it does seem odd these days. But, you know, first of all, most public housing buildings are decades old. They were built before central air was really common. And this policy is decades old, back to when, in a lot of the country, you really did not need air conditioning. So it has meant that agencies can subsidize people's heating bills. But if residents want to get an AC unit, they have to buy it themselves and with some exceptions.
Residents largely pay for that extra electricity themselves. If utilities are included with rent, this means a surcharge. And, you know, for people with extremely low incomes, even a small bit extra every month can be too much. So a lot of people don't use their AC to save money. And this is especially dangerous because public housing residents are disproportionately vulnerable to extreme heat. Many of them are seniors or children or they have chronic health problems. Back in 2021, this got a lot of attention because seven people in public housing died in a heat wave in Portland, Ore.
RASCOE: So what is the new guidance from the Biden administration?
LUDDEN: Basically, it says during a period of extreme heat, public housing agencies are now allowed to pay for an individual resident's cooling cost - not an AC unit, just the utility bill. But this is an option, not a mandate, and the resident has to ask for that help. And the Department of Housing and Urban Development defined what it means by extreme heat event. It says that's a period of severe heat and humidity with temperatures 90 degrees or more for at least two to three days. But local agencies can use their own definition of what will trigger these payments. Now, HUD officials say this is going to let people use AC when they need it without risking heat-related illness, knowing they don't have to worry about cutting back on food or medicine in order to just stay cool.
RASCOE: But as you say, this is only an option, and public housing authorities are not required to pay for AC. So how much difference will this make?
LUDDEN: I spoke with Daniel Carpenter-Gold with the Public Health Law Center. He says, OK, it is good HUD has taken this step, but he calls it a very small step and worries it won't change much. For one thing, it doesn't do anything for people who don't already have AC, and for those who do, he says the agency is basically their landlord. So that can be a tricky relationship, and it might be a hard ask for some people. And Carpenter-Gold says we don't know how this message is going to be put out to tenants.
DANIEL CARPENTER-GOLD: They might not get the notice in the first place that this is a thing. And the residents might not apply in time for them to actually feel like they can turn on their AC or whatever they have when the heat strikes.
LUDDEN: He also says agencies will need to come up with a whole system for approving and organizing these payments, but many of them are cash-strapped, they're understaffed. And he says, look, there's a much simpler way. There already are federal subsidies for heating bills. So his group and others have petitioned to get Washington to include cooling costs in the summer for everybody. Of course, that would be a long, bureaucratic process to get done.
RASCOE: I'm curious. How does clean energy fit into all this? President Biden got Congress to approve massive funding for communities to switch to heat pumps and solar. Is there money for local public housing agencies to do something like that?
LUDDEN: Yes, there is, and the administration is pushing this for public housing absolutely. They say that, you know, for people with very low incomes, this not only reduces planet-warming emissions, it brings down their utility bills. But only a sliver of that funding that Congress approved is for public housing. Carpenter-Gold, the analyst, says that for a real solution here, he'd like to see Congress devote a much larger chunk specifically for these retrofits in public housing.
RASCOE: NPR's Jennifer Ludden. Thank you so much.
LUDDEN: Thank you.
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RASCOE: And that's UP FIRST for Saturday, June 29, 2024. I'm Ayesha Rascoe.
KURTZLEBEN: And I'm Danielle Kurtzleben.
RASCOE: Fernando Narro produced today's episode, with help from Elena Torick (ph) and Martin Patience.
KURTZLEBEN: Andrew Craig was the director.
RASCOE: It was edited by Megan Pratz, Catherine Laidlaw, Ed McNulty and Matthew Schuerman.
KURTZLEBEN: Our technical director is Hannah Gluvna, with engineering support from Neisha Heinis, David Greenburg, Andie Huether, Tom Marchitto (ph) and David Melmer (ph).
RASCOE: Evie Stone is our senior supervising editor. Sarah Oliver is our executive producer.
KURTZLEBEN: Jim Kane is our deputy managing editor.
RASCOE: Tomorrow on The Sunday Story podcast, we travel to Haiti. The gangs that have occupied the capital city are getting ready to confront a multinational police force that has just begun to arrive.
KURTZLEBEN: You can listen to more news, interviews and sports all weekend long on your NPR station. To find your station, go to stations.npr.org.
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