< David Lynch says he 'died a death' over the way his 'Dune' film turned out

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

What have you learned to take less seriously?

DAVID LYNCH: Everything.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

LYNCH: I've learned that life is such a gift and can be enjoyed, and it's all OK. It's all OK. Everything is beautiful.

MARTIN: I'm Rachel Martin and this is WILD CARD, the game where cards control the conversation.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three. Questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that have shaped their lives.

LYNCH: So I sat and closed my eyes, and boom.

MARTIN: My guest today is filmmaker David Lynch.

LYNCH: It was as if I was in an elevator and someone snipped the cables. (Vocalizing). Within I went.

MARTIN: That idea right there - about the elevator being cut loose - that's about the first time David Lynch tried transcendental meditation. Down he plunged into his own subconscious. And that's also what it feels like to absorb David Lynch's work, whether it's the TV show "Twin Peaks" or the movie "Mulholland Drive" or the music that he's currently making with the artist Chrystabell, it feels like you're plunging into a dark, surreal part of the human psyche. And it's totally confusing at times, but it is also thrilling.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SUBLIME ETERNAL LOVE")

CHRYSTABELL: (Singing) When he saw it coming round and...

MARTIN: And frankly, that feeling of being in the elevator in free fall is a little like what talking to him feels like. We start off with some lovely memories of his childhood. And then the elevator drops. And suddenly, we are way deeper inside David Lynch's mind than I expected to go. And we're all just along for the ride. And the thing you learn about David Lynch is that he's got a ton of ideas moving around in his brain, and he just needs to get them out in the world. Thus, his new album. It's called "Cellophane Memories," and it comes out in a couple of months.

Lynch calls his ideas fish. And he talks about creativity as the ability to catch the big ones, the big fish. And just a heads up, although he told me he doesn't actually fish, he does, in fact, swear like a sailor.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: David Lynch, welcome to WILD CARD.

LYNCH: Very good to be here. Thanks a lot for having me.

MARTIN: When you're fishing for big, creative ideas, how do you know which ones to catch and which ones to throw back?

LYNCH: Love. Love drives the boat. Many ideas come - thousands - but some come that are very special, and we fall in love with those ideas. And I always say that I fall in love for two reasons. One, the idea, and the second is what one medium or another could do with that idea. So you could get an idea, say, that you love. And then you say, oh, cinema would be such a beautiful medium to say this idea. And so it's like a double beautiful whammy.

MARTIN: Yeah. So what did you fall in love with to generate this new musical collaboration at this point in your life?

LYNCH: Well, I love experimenting with many different things, but I like experimenting with sound. And since the beginning of working on films, I always thought sound was at least 50% of the whole experience.

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: In other words, it's picture and sound, I always say, flowing together in time. And that's cinema. So I was experimenting with sound, and I came upon this thing at a point when Chrystabell came here. And she sang into this experiment. And she is perfect for this and in ways I can't really explain. So it takes two or three times to hear it before it becomes beautiful.

MARTIN: So the first go out, you were like, oh, this is dissonant. This is not...

LYNCH: First hearing it - total bull****.

MARTIN: (Laughter).

LYNCH: Second hearing, a little bit less. Third hearing, beauty. It just clicked as being like a friend. And it conjures memories. That's how come that title came. In listening to this, all these way-distant memories started bubbling up. Something about this music conjured memories.

MARTIN: What memories came to the fore for you through that project?

LYNCH: Well, each song does a different thing, but memories from way, way back and childhood memories started coming up. You know, the pictures from long ago became in front of me and right.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: We're going to play the game.

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: I've got a deck of cards in front of me, David. Each one has a question on it, OK?

LYNCH: Uh-huh.

MARTIN: I'm going to hold up three cards at a time, and you're going to choose one at random to answer.

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: There are two rules. You get one skip. If you use your skip, I'll just swap in another question from the deck.

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: Rule number two, you get one flip. You can put me on the spot, and I'll answer the question before you do. We're breaking it up into three rounds, OK? The first round is memories, then insights, and lastly, beliefs with a few questions...

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: ...In each round.

LYNCH: Shoot.

MARTIN: And...

LYNCH: Go ahead. Go for it.

MARTIN: Go for it. You're like, this is - OK. There's a prize at the end. I just want you to know that. So there is an...

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: ...Added incentive, OK?

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: All right. Let's go. Let's just do it. Round one - memories. One, two, three - which one?

LYNCH: I'll take number one.

MARTIN: Number one - what's a moment from your childhood when you realized you wanted to make different choices than your parents?

LYNCH: Well, I was on the front lawn of my girlfriend's house in the ninth grade, and I was meeting a fellow named Toby Keeler who didn't go to my high school, went to - he went to a private school, and he was telling me that his father was a painter. I thought at first his father was a house painter. But he said, no, a fine art painter. And a bomb went off in my head, a bomb that changed my life. In a millisecond completely changed my life. From that moment on, I wanted to be a painter - only that. And so my father, being a research scientist for the Department of Agriculture, I never really wanted to be that either but wanted to be a painter, an artist who made it for sure I wasn't going to follow in my father's footsteps.

MARTIN: I mean, your mother, I think, was a homemaker, was she not?

LYNCH: Yes.

MARTIN: And...

LYNCH: She taught English, but she was a homemaker, yeah.

MARTIN: So this is sort of a mainstream normal, quote-unquote, "life," and that's a real different path than that of an artist.

LYNCH: Yes.

MARTIN: Did they ever try to dissuade you?

LYNCH: Yes, they did, actually, you know, but you can't dissuade someone from, you know, a thing like that. So they, I think, were very thankful that things seemed to work out for me. Many, many people have a great talent, and they just can't get arrested. I always say they can't get arrested. And they've got this talent. And I always say fate plays such a huge role in our life. You know, it's like some people get red lights, and some people get green lights.

MARTIN: Where do you think - because you had to have a high threshold for risk to pursue that path or delusion, some might say. Where do you think that instinct came from, given that those weren't things that were manifest in your parent's life necessarily?

LYNCH: When you love something, there's no problem. There's no problem. You're in love. And you take it, whatever comes along. You're in love.

MARTIN: Yeah. Yeah. OK. Three more cards, OK?

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: We're still in memories. Three more cards. One, two or three.

LYNCH: Two.

MARTIN: Two. What was your form of rebelling as a teenager?

LYNCH: OK. Well, I lived three lives. I lived a home life. I lived as kind of a school life where I stay with my sweetheart, my girlfriend, and the studio, you know, art life. So I had a studio during high school in downtown Alexandria with my friend Jack Fisk. So after school, I'd go to the studio, and then, you know, also was a bit of a party animal. So I had these three lives, and I didn't want any of them to mix, really. So I developed spasms of the intestines.

MARTIN: You developed a condition. So you created it...

LYNCH: Yes.

MARTIN: ...For yourself? It was psychosomatic?

LYNCH: I have a psychosomatic disease, yeah.

MARTIN: And what did it do for you?

LYNCH: S*** - I s*** my pants. That's what happened. It was a horrible thing. However, I'll tell you a good side of this.

MARTIN: OK.

LYNCH: The Vietnam War was cooking up around this time.

MARTIN: Right.

LYNCH: And my father took me to a doctor because this spasms in the intestines. I got an intestinal, you know, one of these things where they look at your...

MARTIN: Like a colonoscopy kind of thing?

LYNCH: A colonospity (ph), you know, ospity (ph), whatever.

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: And the guy was a great doctor and he pretended that as he was watching, that it was a race track. And he said, here they go around this corner. They're going around there. Such and such number seven is in the lead, and they're going around this corner.

MARTIN: In your colon?

LYNCH: Following the colonostomy (ph), you know, he was - as he was telling me about, you know, my intestines. Anyway, he said, you have spasms of the intestines.

MARTIN: Ah.

LYNCH: And he said, by the way, I see on the X-rays, you have a vertebrae out of place. And if you're ever called for the army, I can give you these X-rays, and you probably won't be called if you want to get out. So spasms of intestines led to a doctor that helped me get out - and I didn't have to go to Vietnam.

MARTIN: That - we started at what was your form of rebellion and then we went to you compartmentalizing your life into three lives. And I think the thread is because you worked so hard to keep those lives separate, you developed a stomach disorder, and then you went to a doctor who happened to diagnose something not related that kept you out of Vietnam, is that right?

LYNCH: Exactly.

MARTIN: Wow.

LYNCH: Exactly.

MARTIN: That...

LYNCH: It let me live the art life, you know, in peace, and that was so beautiful. I can't tell you how lucky I've been in my life, how fortunate and lucky I've been.

MARTIN: What were you rebelling against?

LYNCH: All part of life is - a certain point, children are supposed to rebel. It's part of getting prepared to leave the nest, and it's a healthy thing. It's just some rebel more than others. And I caused a lot of sadness and worry for my parents. I know I did. I had a great relationship with them, but I put them through a lot of trouble.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLUE DOT SESSIONS SONG, "BURHAM STREET")

MARTIN: When we come back, David Lynch says, finding bliss isn't as hard as it may seem.

LYNCH: Transcending, transcending, transcending, easy, effortless. It works first time every time.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLUE DOT SESSIONS SONG, "BURHAM STREET")

MARTIN: Round 2, OK?

LYNCH: Round 2. I thought we were done (laughter).

MARTIN: No.

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: David...

LYNCH: Come on.

MARTIN: ...You need some provisions. You need to...

LYNCH: Hit me with the best shot.

MARTIN: OK. Round 2 - these are insights...

LYNCH: OK.

MARTIN: ...Things you're working on now or have learned now. One, two or three.

LYNCH: One.

MARTIN: What's an expression of love you're trying to get better at?

LYNCH: What's an expression of love I'm trying to get better at?

MARTIN: Yes.

LYNCH: To put yourself in the shoes of others.

MARTIN: Why do you think that's important?

LYNCH: You asked me that one question. Now you ask me another.

MARTIN: (Laughter) We'll leave it.

LYNCH: Yeah. OK.

MARTIN: We'll leave it. That's the expression of love you're trying to get better at.

LYNCH: It's important to really try to feel what others might be feeling and put that in the hopper just to think about. What's the next?

MARTIN: One, two, three.

LYNCH: Two. I think I've worked my way to two now.

MARTIN: What have you learned to take less seriously?

LYNCH: Everything. I've learned that, you know, life is such a gift and can be enjoyed, and it's all OK. It's all OK. Everything is beautiful. It's all OK - nothing to worry about really - nothing to worry about.

MARTIN: How do you represent that in the face of suffering? In the face of real suffering, how do you tell that to people who have suffered the unimaginable?

LYNCH: OK. You - first of all, everyone suffers to some degree or another. And the way to stop suffering is to exchange this suffering for happiness. Where is this happiness? It's within. Deep, deep within every human being is this unbounded ocean of consciousness. That field of consciousness has qualities. And one of those qualities is bliss - unbounded happiness. Happy people do not suffer. Happy people - just a bubble of happiness will - if it's so intense, the happiness, it won't allow you to suffer.

MARTIN: But, you know, bad things happen to happy people - like, very, very bad things.

LYNCH: OK. If this is true, what you say, and I'm sure it's true for some, I always say, if you're filled with happiness, the events of our lives may stay the same but how we go through them will certainly change if you have this - more and more happiness.

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: So the bad things, they won't be as bad. And the good things will appreciate - be appreciated more.

MARTIN: Yeah. I get that.

LYNCH: So...

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: ...The secret is to get more and more consciousness. And if that doesn't ring a bell with you or if you think that's baloney, fine. But, you know, to me, it's as true as the nose on our face. It's true. In my life, I've been meditating for 50 - almost 51 years. I've never missed a meditation twice a day.

MARTIN: Wow.

LYNCH: And this happiness within has saved me. It was the thing for me.

MARTIN: I've heard that. I've meditated off and on only recently.

LYNCH: With transcendental meditation?

MARTIN: No. I haven't tried that yet.

LYNCH: OK. So here's the thing. There's many, many, many forms of meditation - many forms - and they've all been tested on the EEG machine. The key is transcending. Contemplation, no transcending. Concentration forms of meditation, no transcending. Even a lot of the mantra forms, there wasn't any transcending. Transcendental meditation - (clap) transcending, transcending, transcending - easy, effortless. It works first time, every time.

MARTIN: What?

LYNCH: Get this technique. Get this technique. You'll see the difference. I'm telling you.

MARTIN: I mean, if David Lynch is telling me to get into transcendental meditation, I probably should at least check it out. You just told me it was easy, and I was going to transcend the first time.

LYNCH: You know, everybody thinks - well, not everybody, but a lot of people think the spiritual path is hard work. You got to meditate hours and hours and hours. We're human beings. We're blessed with a certain type of nervous system - it's built to transcend. We're supposed to be able to unfold our full potential. We're supposed to get along one - with one another. One big-world happy family. Peace - we're supposed to be at peace. We're supposed to be like little dogs where our tail is wagging and being happy, little smiles on our face all day long - this is the way it's supposed to be. It's not that way now. It's a hellhole. But it can change.

MARTIN: Wow. Last one in...

LYNCH: Three.

MARTIN: Three. What failure have you learned the most from?

LYNCH: "Dune." My film, "Dune," which I knew already, one should have final cut before signing on to do a film. But for some reason, I thought everything would be OK, and I didn't put final cut in my contract. And as it turned out, "Dune" wasn't the film I wanted to make because I didn't...

MARTIN: Wow.

LYNCH: ...Have a final say. So that's a lesson I knew even before, but now there's no way. Why would anyone make a film - work for three years on something that wasn't yours? Why do that? Why? I died the death, and it was all my fault for not knowing to do that, put that in the contract.

MARTIN: So what did you learn from that?

LYNCH: Always have final cut.

MARTIN: Just - (laughter).

LYNCH: That's my lesson. Always. Creative control. Final cut.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: In a moment - the beliefs round and David Lynch's trip in our memory time machine.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: This is the beliefs round. One...

LYNCH: Number one.

MARTIN: ...Two or three? OK. Have you ever had a premonition about something that came true?

LYNCH: Yes.

MARTIN: Would you share it?

LYNCH: On "The Elephant Man," I was going to be building the makeup for "The Elephant Man." And my mother happened to be visiting, and my wife Mary was there, and we were standing in the dining room around a dark wood dining room table. I was on one side, and they were on the other. And all of a sudden, I got a deja vu. And in the deja vu, this past thing came roaring up, which is like a deja vu, right?

MARTIN: Right.

LYNCH: Something from the past.

MARTIN: Right.

LYNCH: But then it roared up. But then it started going into the future and I saw this thing, and it was over, then I came out. And I said, oh. And they looked at me. And I said, the makeup is going to fail. The makeup is a failure. It's going to fail. And it did.

MARTIN: What was the thing? May I ask? What was the memory that came?

LYNCH: The deja vu, I don't even remember what it was from the past.

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: It was just - it went into the future. So I saw that it wasn't working and - in the future.

MARTIN: OK. That makes sense to me that that would happen to you because I view you as a person who kind of lives on the temporal continuum in the past, in the present and in the future.

LYNCH: Beautiful. Beautiful. It all is a continuum. You're right.

MARTIN: Yeah. OK. Last question.

LYNCH: What was I on - what was my first one?

MARTIN: Your first...

LYNCH: Was it a one or a two? I think it was a one. Pick the two, then.

MARTIN: OK. Where have you experienced awe?

LYNCH: Where have I experienced?

MARTIN: Awe.

LYNCH: Awe.

MARTIN: Where have you experienced awe?

LYNCH: Well, many times, but for sure, my first meditation. I could say, let's put it that way, my first meditation.

MARTIN: Where were you? What place were you in?

LYNCH: Well, I was at the TM center, and I'd just been taught. And I was taken to a little room, a little place, and my teacher said, sit here. Close the eyes, sit here, and start your meditation. I'll be back in 20 minutes. So I sat and closed my eyes and started what I just learned. And boom. And I say it was as if I was in an elevator and someone snipped the cables. (Vocalizing). Within I went. (Vocalizing). Bliss. The bliss that make you cry. So beautiful. So powerful.

Transcendental meditation is garbage going out, gold coming in. I would say, we are living, like, in a suffocating rubber clown suit of negativity. We don't want to be clowns. We don't want to have this heavy stinking rubber all around us of negativity. You start transcending every day, the rubber starts disintegrating, evaporating, and freedom comes, bliss starts coming. It just happens automatically. It's so beautiful. Why isn't everybody and his little brother meditating? I don't know. Go figure.

MARTIN: I mean, I have to say, you seem to truly have, I mean, found some level of contentment that I don't think a lot of people have found.

LYNCH: It's all there within. If it - you know, it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. And it's a great trip we're all on. It just makes it greater when you're transcending every day. Money in the bank. Twenty minutes in the morning, 20 minutes in the afternoon and go about your business the rest of the time.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: OK. David Lynch, you made it to the end. The prize is a trip in our memory time machine to revisit one moment from your past. This is a moment you wouldn't change anything about. You would just like to spend a little more time there. Which moment are you going to choose?

LYNCH: OK. So I was - I heard about this show at the LA County Art Museum. All these things from India were coming over from the Far East - great, giant sandstone carvings. So I went with my second wife, Mary, and my daughter, Jennifer. We went over to see the show, and we got separated. They went one place, and I went another on my own.

And I was going along this white wall. And I turned around the corner, and I realized it was part of a wall that was used to create a long corridor. So when I walked around the end of the white wall, I turned, and I saw I was looking down a long corridor. And my eyes went down the long corridor, and there at the end of the long corridor was a pedestal. And on top of the pedestal, there was the head of Buddha. And my eyes went up the pedestal and landed on the head of Buddha. And, boom, white light shot out of the head of Buddha and shot into me. And I was - balloon filled with bliss. I was filled with so much bliss. I had it for hours - this bliss in me - from the head of Buddha.

MARTIN: Wow. That beats, you know, sitting on the grass of - in my front yard with my mom and some sun tea, which is usually the memory that I go to (laughter).

LYNCH: That's a beautiful memory you've got there. That's a beautiful thing. That's beautiful. Are you kidding me?

MARTIN: No. I know it's beautiful.

LYNCH: And that - look at the happiness you had there in that moment. It's all about this happiness...

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: ...And a good feeling, a feeling of peace and happiness. This is what every human being really wants, where they - see, another thing is this thing of being an artist, a lot of artists - and I had this same f***ing thing - excuse my French - we want to be our own, you know, guru. We want to be our own - we want to make up our own meditation, thank you very much. I don't want to join any club. And, you know, this is bull****. I don't want to join up. Whatever you're doing, fine. Do it. But luckily, I was smart enough to say, you know, maybe I should swallow whatever - you know, this problem I have with pride or whatever and take...

MARTIN: Yeah.

LYNCH: ...This and see if it's right for me. And so that's what I did. And I'm so thankful I did.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLUE DOT SESSION'S "SMOOTH EDGES")

MARTIN: David Lynch, I'm so glad to have had this conversation with you. And I appreciate that you took so much time to do it and gave such thoughtful answers. Thank you.

LYNCH: You better believe it. Now, remember, ladies and gentlemen, "Cellophane Memories" comes out August 2, 2024...

MARTIN: That's right.

LYNCH: ...On Sacred Bones Records. And you will find music that'll bring back memories and find memories that will bring so much beauty and happiness into your life - beauty. It's so tender. It's a tender music but tender as in beautiful.

MARTIN: Thank you, David.

LYNCH: Thank you very much.

(SOUNDBITE OF BLUE DOT SESSION'S "SMOOTH EDGES")

MARTIN: If you want more David Lynch, we've got a bonus episode that's available now just for our WILD CARD Plus subscribers. He talks about how he views the afterlife.

LYNCH: We're, you know, in a small, dark world right now. But waiting for us is - whoa. They say it's just beyond the beyond.

MARTIN: You'll also hear a bonus question with Bowen Yang. WILD CARD Plus is a new way to support our show and public radio. And you get other perks like sponsor-free listening. Check it out by going to plus.npr.org/wildcard.

Next week on WILD CARD, we talk to comedian Taylor Tomlinson. She tells me how fear has been a helpful motivator in her life.

TAYLOR TOMLINSON: I was afraid that I would get years down the road and go, man, I really wish I had pursued that or I wish I had done more with this potential I had.

MARTIN: This episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Barclay Walsh and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. WILD CARD's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to us at [email protected]. We'll shuffle the deck. We'll be back with more next week. See you then.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

Copyright © 2024 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.